Documentation

Qualifiers “start time (P580), end time (P582), statement is subject of (P805), sourcing circumstances (P1480), end cause (P1534), has cause (P828), nature of statement (P5102), valid in period (P1264), statement disputed by (P1310), reason for deprecated rank (P2241), series ordinal (P1545), earliest date (P1319), latest date (P1326), statement supported by (P3680), reason for preferred rank (P7452), latest start date (P8555), earliest end date (P8554), applies to work (P10663), historical region (P6885)”: this property should be used only with the listed qualifiers. (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#allowed qualifiers, SPARQL

Conflicts with “sex or gender (P21): male organism (Q44148), female organism (Q43445)”: this property must not be used with the listed properties and values. (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#Conflicts with P21, SPARQL

Contemporaries:
if [item A] has this property (country of citizenship (P27)) linked to [item B],
then [item A] and [item B] have to coincide or coexist at some point of history. (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#Contemporary, SPARQL

Property “instance of (P31)” declared by target items of “country of citizenship (P27)”: If [item A] has this property with value [item B], [item B] is required to have property “instance of (P31)”. (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#Target required claim P31, SPARQL, SPARQL (by value)

Allowed entity types are Wikibase item (Q29934200): the property may only be used on a certain entity type (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#Entity types

Scope is as main value (Q54828448), as qualifier (Q54828449): the property must be used by specified way only (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#Scope, SPARQL

None of Austria-Hungary (Q28513): value must not be any of the specified items.
Replacement property:
Replacement values: Cisleithania (Q533534), Hungary (Q28) (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#none of, SPARQL

None of Yugoslavia (Q36704): value must not be any of the specified items.
Replacement property:
Replacement values: Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (Q15102440), Kingdom of Yugoslavia (Q191077), Democratic Federal Yugoslavia (Q1277557), Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Q83286), Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Q838261) (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#none of, SPARQL

None of Third Hungarian Republic (Q718422): value must not be any of the specified items.
Replacement property:
Replacement values: Hungary (Q28) (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#none of, SPARQL

None of Roman Empire (Q2277): value must not be any of the specified items.
Replacement property:
Replacement values: Ancient Rome (Q1747689) (Help)

List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#none of, hourly updated report, SPARQL

None of Aruba (Q21203), Curaçao (Q25279), Sint Maarten (Q26273): value must not be any of the specified items.
Replacement property:
Replacement values: Kingdom of the Netherlands (Q29999) (Help)

List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#none of, hourly updated report, SPARQL

None of Denmark (Q35), Faroe Islands (Q4628), Greenland (Q223): value must not be any of the specified items.
Replacement property:
Replacement values: Kingdom of Denmark (Q756617) (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#none of, SPARQL

None of England (Q21), Scotland (Q22), Wales (Q25), Northern Ireland (Q26): value must not be any of the specified items.
Replacement property:
Replacement values: United Kingdom (Q145), United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (Q174193) (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#none of, SPARQL

None of Guam (Q16635), United States Virgin Islands (Q11703), Northern Mariana Islands (Q16644), American Samoa (Q16641): value must not be any of the specified items.
Replacement property:
Replacement values: United States of America (Q30) (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#none of, SPARQL

None of Puerto Rico (Q1183): value must not be any of the specified items.
Replacement property:
Replacement values: (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#none of, SPARQL

None of Chinese Taipei (Q216923): value must not be any of the specified items.
Replacement property:
Replacement values: Taiwan (Q865) (Help)

List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#none of, hourly updated report, SPARQL

None of China (Q29520): value must not be any of the specified items.
Replacement property:
Replacement values: People's Republic of China (Q148), Republic of China (Q13426199), Qing Dynasty (Q8733), Ming dynasty (Q9903), Yuan dynasty (Q7313), Song dynasty (Q7462), Tang dynasty (Q9683), Sui dynasty (Q7405), Jin dynasty (Q5066), Cao Wei (Q320930), Shu Han (Q320925), Eastern Wu (Q274488), Han dynasty (Q7209), Qin dynasty (Q7183), Zhou dynasty (Q35216), Shang dynasty (Q128938), Xia dynasty (Q169705), Imperial China (Q12060881) (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#none of, SPARQL

None of Kanto (Q1657833), Johto (Q607459), Hoenn (Q872285), Sinnoh (Q603624), Hisui (Q108151641), Unova (Q4843341), Kalos (Q15132899), Alola (Q25594375), Galar (Q61951161), Isle of Armor (Q96336410), Crown Tundra (Q96336606), Paldea (Q113403829), Sevii Islands (Q2454900): value must not be any of the specified items.
Replacement property:
Replacement values: (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#none of, SPARQL

None of Ancient Greece (Q11772): value must not be any of the specified items.
Replacement property:
Replacement values: (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#none of, SPARQL

None of Republic of German-Austria (Q268970), First Republic of Austria (Q518101), Federal State of Austria (Q176495): value must not be any of the specified items.
Replacement property:
Replacement values: Austria (Q40) (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P27#none of, SPARQL

Value "Dominica" and place of birth in the "Dominican Republic"
Possible, but likely an error. TODO: double-check, then add a reference to the P27 statement or fix P27=Dominica (Q784) -> Dominican Republic (Q786) (Help)
Violations query:

SELECT DISTINCT ?item  {    ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q784 .   ?item wdt:P19/wdt:P17? wd:Q786 .   FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q786 }   ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q5.   ?item p:P27 ?claim .   ?claim ps:P27 wd:Q784 .   OPTIONAL { ?claim prov:wasDerivedFrom ?source . ?source ?p ?v . FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?v wdt:P31 wd:Q10876391 } }    FILTER(!bound(?source))  }

List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P27#Value "Dominica" and place of birth in the "Dominican Republic"

Value "Niger" and place of birth in "Nigeria"
Possible, but likely an error. TODO: double-check, then add a reference to the P27 statement or fix P27=Niger (Q1032) -> Nigeria (Q1033) (Help)
Violations query:

SELECT DISTINCT ?item  {    ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q1032 .   ?item wdt:P19/wdt:P17? wd:Q1033 .   FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q1033 }   ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q5.   ?item p:P27 ?claim .   ?claim ps:P27 wd:Q1032 .   OPTIONAL { ?claim prov:wasDerivedFrom ?source . ?source ?p ?v . FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?v wdt:P31 wd:Q10876391 } }    FILTER(!bound(?source))  }

List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P27#Value "Niger" and place of birth in "Nigeria"

Value "Guinea" and place of birth in "Guinea-Bissau"
Possible, but likely an error. TODO: double-check, then add a reference to the P27 statement or fix P27=Guinea (Q1006) -> Guinea-Bissau (Q1007) (Help)
Violations query:

SELECT DISTINCT ?item  {    ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q1006 .   ?item wdt:P19/wdt:P17? wd:Q1007 .   FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q1007 }   ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q5.   ?item p:P27 ?claim .   ?claim ps:P27 wd:Q1006 .   OPTIONAL { ?claim prov:wasDerivedFrom ?source . ?source ?p ?v . FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?v wdt:P31 wd:Q10876391 } }    FILTER(!bound(?source))  }

List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P27#Value "Guinea" and place of birth in "Guinea-Bissau"

Value "Guinea" and place of birth in "Equatorial Guinea"
Possible, but likely an error. TODO: double-check, then add a reference to the P27 statement or fix P27=Guinea (Q1006) -> Equatorial Guinea (Q983) (Help)
Violations query:

SELECT DISTINCT ?item  {    ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q1006 .   ?item wdt:P19/wdt:P17? wd:Q983 .   FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q983 }   ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q5.   ?item p:P27 ?claim .   ?claim ps:P27 wd:Q1006 .   OPTIONAL { ?claim prov:wasDerivedFrom ?source . ?source ?p ?v . FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?v wdt:P31 wd:Q10876391 } }    FILTER(!bound(?source))  }

List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P27#Value "Guinea" and place of birth in "Equatorial Guinea"

Value "Sudan" and place of birth in "South Sudan"
Possible, but likely an error. TODO: double-check, then add a reference to the P27 statement or fix P27=Sudan (Q1049) -> South Sudan (Q958) (Help)
Violations query:

SELECT DISTINCT ?item  {    ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q1049 .   ?item wdt:P19/wdt:P17? wd:Q958 .   FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q1049 }   ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q5.   ?item p:P27 ?claim .   ?claim ps:P27 wd:Q1049 .   OPTIONAL { ?claim prov:wasDerivedFrom ?source . ?source ?p ?v . FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?v wdt:P31 wd:Q10876391 } }    FILTER(!bound(?source))  }

List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P27#Value "Sudan" and place of birth in "South Sudan"

Value "Republic of the Congo" and place of birth in "Democratic Republic of the Congo"
Possible, but likely an error. TODO: double-check, then add a reference to the P27 statement or fix P27=Republic of the Congo (Q971) -> Democratic Republic of the Congo (Q974) (Help)
Violations query:

SELECT DISTINCT ?item  {    ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q971 .   ?item wdt:P19/wdt:P17? wd:Q974 .   FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q974 }   ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q5.   ?item p:P27 ?claim .   ?claim ps:P27 wd:Q971 .   OPTIONAL { ?claim prov:wasDerivedFrom ?source . ?source ?p ?v . FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?v wdt:P31 wd:Q10876391 } }    FILTER(!bound(?source))  }

List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P27#Value "Republic of the Congo" and place of birth in "Democratic Republic of the Congo"

Value "Samoa" and place of birth in "American Samoa"
Possible, but likely an error. TODO: double-check, then add a reference to the P27 statement or fix P27=Samoa (Q683) -> American Samoa (Q16641) (Help)
Violations query:

SELECT DISTINCT ?item  {    ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q683 .   ?item wdt:P19/wdt:P131* wd:Q16641 .   FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q16641 }   ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q5.   ?item p:P27 ?claim .   ?claim ps:P27 wd:Q683 .   OPTIONAL { ?claim prov:wasDerivedFrom ?source . ?source ?p ?v . FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?v wdt:P31 wd:Q10876391 } }    FILTER(!bound(?source))  }

List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P27#Value "Samoa" and place of birth in "American Samoa"

Which items to use?
Country	Earliest	Latest	Note
Kingdom of the Netherlands (Q29999)	1815	present
Netherlands (Q55)	-	-	don't use
Austria-Hungary (Q28513) - don't use	1867	1918	- instead use Cisleithania (Q533534) for northern and western part of country (Austrian Lands) with Dalmatia and Istria without the Kingdom of Hungary - instead use Kingdom of Hungary (Q25395037) for Hungary with Croatia and Slavonia without Istria and Dalmatia – see the map →
Yugoslavia (Q36704) - don't use	1918	1929	instead use Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (Q15102440)
	1929	1943	instead use Kingdom of Yugoslavia (Q191077)
	1943	1945	instead use Democratic Federal Yugoslavia (Q1277557)
	1945	1992	instead use Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Q83286)
	1992	2003	instead use Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Q838261) that time only for the Serbian and Montenegrin part of the former country
Serbia and Montenegro (Q37024)	2003	2006	possibility of confusion because the country's name is changed to Serbia and Montenegro, and the name of Yugoslavia is no longer used
Czechoslovakia (Q33946)	1918	1992	before 1918 use Cisleithania (Q533534) or Kingdom of Hungary (Q25395037), after 1993 use Czech Republic (Q213) or Slovakia (Q214)
Czech Republic (Q213)	1969/1993	present	note that afer the federalization of Czechoslovakia (Q33946) in 1969 republic and federal citizenship existed at the same time, rhus use of Czech Republic (Q213) or Slovakia (Q214) before 1993 is therefore not necessarily incorrect
Slovakia (Q214)	1969/1993	present

Constraint One of moved at the bottom of the page - too many items...

This property is being used by:

Please notify projects that use this property before big changes (renaming, deletion, merge with another property, etc.)

Missing P27 with value Russia
(Help)
Violations query: SELECT DISTINCT ?item { ?item wdt:P166 wd:Q2011676. FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q159 }. }
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P27#Missing P27 with value Russia

Value Indian (Q226324) will be automatically replaced to value India (Q668).
Testing: TODO list

Value Aruba (Q21203) will be automatically replaced to value Kingdom of the Netherlands (Q29999).
Testing: TODO list

Value Curaçao (Q25279) will be automatically replaced to value Kingdom of the Netherlands (Q29999).
Testing: TODO list

Value Sint Maarten (Q26273) will be automatically replaced to value Kingdom of the Netherlands (Q29999).
Testing: TODO list

Value Swedes (Q165192) will be automatically replaced to value Sweden (Q34).
Testing: TODO list

Value Albanians (Q179248) will be automatically replaced to value Albania (Q222).
Testing: TODO list

Value French (Q121842) will be automatically replaced to value France (Q142).
Testing: TODO list

Value Israelis (Q875556) will be automatically replaced to value Israel (Q801).
Testing: TODO list

Value Canadians (Q1196645) will be automatically replaced to value Canada (Q16).
Testing: TODO list

Value Portuguese (Q178630) will be automatically replaced to value Portugal (Q45).
Testing: TODO list

Value Dutch (Q200569) will be automatically replaced to value Netherlands (Q55).
Testing: TODO list

Value Swiss (Q124216) will be automatically replaced to value Switzerland (Q39).
Testing: TODO list

Value Indian (Q862086) will be automatically replaced to value India (Q668).
Testing: TODO list

Value Norwegians (Q188779) will be automatically replaced to value Norway (Q20).
Testing: TODO list

Value Spaniards (Q160894) will be automatically replaced to value Spain (Q29).
Testing: TODO list

Value Austrians (Q237534) will be automatically replaced to value Austria (Q40).
Testing: TODO list

Value Faroese (Q223179) will be automatically replaced to value Faroe Islands (Q4628).
Testing: TODO list

Value Brazilians (Q873625) will be automatically replaced to value Brazil (Q155).
Testing: TODO list

Value British (Q842438) will be automatically replaced to value United Kingdom (Q145).
Testing: TODO list

Value Syrians (Q878607) will be automatically replaced to value Syria (Q858).
Testing: TODO list

Value Cubans (Q1195125) will be automatically replaced to value Cuba (Q241).
Testing: TODO list

Value Belgians (Q1377716) will be automatically replaced to value Belgium (Q31).
Testing: TODO list

Value Mexicans (Q1209676) will be automatically replaced to value Mexico (Q96).
Testing: TODO list

Value Saudis (Q18600381) will be automatically replaced to value Saudi Arabia (Q851).
Testing: TODO list

Value Japanese citizen (Q58893412) will be automatically replaced to value Japan (Q17).
Testing: TODO list

Value Algerians (Q12480578) will be automatically replaced to value Algeria (Q262).
Testing: TODO list

Value Ivorians (Q99766936) will be automatically replaced to value Ivory Coast (Q1008).
Testing: TODO list

Value Kosovars (Q1785086) will be automatically replaced to value Kosovo (Q1246).
Testing: TODO list

Value Pakistanis (Q3310017) will be automatically replaced to value Pakistan (Q843).
Testing: TODO list

Value Australians (Q1318423) will be automatically replaced to value Australia (Q408).
Testing: TODO list

Value Australians (Q1318423) will be automatically replaced to value Australian continent (Q3960).
Testing: TODO list

Value Argentines (Q2365041) will be automatically replaced to value Argentina (Q414).
Testing: TODO list

Value Haitians (Q4131845) will be automatically replaced to value Haiti (Q790).
Testing: TODO list

Value Chileans (Q1276073) will be automatically replaced to value Chile (Q298).
Testing: TODO list

Value Lebanese (Q2606511) will be automatically replaced to value Lebanon (Q822).
Testing: TODO list

Value Danes (Q164714) will be automatically replaced to value Denmark (Q35).
Testing: TODO list

Value Trinidadians and Tobagonians (Q12960308) will be automatically replaced to value Trinidad and Tobago (Q754).
Testing: TODO list

Value Turks (Q84072) will be automatically replaced to value Turkey (Q43).
Testing: TODO list

Value Moroccans (Q1891793) will be automatically replaced to value Morocco (Q1028).
Testing: TODO list

Value Irish (Q101094861) will be automatically replaced to value Republic of Ireland (Q27).
Testing: TODO list

Value Panamanians (Q20747504) will be automatically replaced to value Panama (Q804).
Testing: TODO list

Value Americans (Q846570) will be automatically replaced to value United States of America (Q30).
Testing: TODO list

Value Congolese (Q98000094) will be automatically replaced to value Zaire (Q6500954).
Testing: TODO list

Value Salvadorans (Q12775779) will be automatically replaced to value El Salvador (Q792).
Testing: TODO list

Value Malaysians (Q19840401) will be automatically replaced to value Malaysia (Q833).
Testing: TODO list

Value Congolese (Q98000094) will be automatically replaced to value Democratic Republic of the Congo (Q974).
Testing: TODO list

Value Monegasques (Q2039972) will be automatically replaced to value Monaco (Q235).
Testing: TODO list

Value Vietnamese (Q3275151) will be automatically replaced to value Vietnam (Q881).
Testing: TODO list

Value Georgians (Q100789867) will be automatically replaced to value Georgia (Q230).
Testing: TODO list

Value Indonesians (Q4200853) will be automatically replaced to value Indonesia (Q252).
Testing: TODO list

Value Cameroonians (Q100249818) will be automatically replaced to value Cameroon (Q1009).
Testing: TODO list

Value Afghans (Q16007968) will be automatically replaced to value Afghanistan (Q889).
Testing: TODO list

Value Sudanese (Q3976616) will be automatically replaced to value Sudan (Q1049).
Testing: TODO list

Value Palestinians (Q201190) will be automatically replaced to value State of Palestine (Q219060).
Testing: TODO list

Value Kenyans (Q60723796) will be automatically replaced to value Kenya (Q114).
Testing: TODO list

Value Colombians (Q2997267) will be automatically replaced to value Colombia (Q739).
Testing: TODO list

Value Beninese (Q61256336) will be automatically replaced to value Benin (Q962).
Testing: TODO list

Value South Sudanese (Q99353905) will be automatically replaced to value South Sudan (Q958).
Testing: TODO list

Value Bangladeshis (Q4855428) will be automatically replaced to value Bangladesh (Q902).
Testing: TODO list

Value Greeks (Q539051) will be automatically replaced to value Greece (Q41).
Testing: TODO list

Discussion[edit]

Maintenance requests[edit]

List here some automated requests that you may find useful for maintaining this property:

humans with country of citizenship pointing to a disambiguation page

Renaming[edit]

In the spirit of having the most unambiguous property label, I'm changing "Nationality" to "country of citizenship". "Nationality" has several possible meaings, and, perhaps more importantly, several possible phrasings - if I were to have an item, would it say my Nationality were "America", "American", or "Americans"? Imagine how much more complicated it would be if I lived elsewhere, or had changed citizenship... this way, if there's a need, we can also have a "country of residence", "country of birth" (though we already have a "place of birth"), "previous countries of residence" - whatever. But "Nationality" is far too vague. — PinkAmpers&^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 21:20, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure in look of the description and comment of PinkAmpersand for german language: sich ergebenden Rechte und Pflichten einer natürlichen Person in einem Staat. Is this btw the right position to discuss such heavy weight decisions? Conny (talk) 14:06, 5 February 2013 (UTC).[reply]

The value for this property should be "United States of America" or "American"? --β₁₆ - (talk) 22:05, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

United States of America. --09:29, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

"Sovereign State"[edit]

As was pointed out at Wikidata:Property_proposal#Unrecognized_country_of_citizenship, the description specifies that the object should be a "sovereign state", but that may be inaccurate. Hong Kong is a Chinese dependency, yet an Hongkongese passport is really not the same thing as a maintstream Chinese passport, so that it makes sense to have "Hong Kong" as a country of citizenship. Should I change "sovereign state" to the more vague "country" ? --Zolo (talk) 09:29, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

old times[edit]

"the object is a sovereign state that recognizes the subject as its citizen". That may seem fine for today, but it is not so suitable for other periods. For instance en:Dante's infobox states that Dante is an Italian. There was no sovereign Italy at the time, and actually, I am not sure that "recognizing the subject as its citizen" is something that makes much sense in the 13th century. At the same time, it sounds sort of obvious to most people that Dante is Italian. How should we handle such cases ? --Zolo (talk) 19:09, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, but this is a problem even in fairly recent times. For instance, I just removed the statement that William Dawson (1852-1923) was a New Zealand citizen, because New Zealand citizenship did not exist before 1949. Presumably he was a British subject, although I'm not sure if that's the same thing as having British citizenship. Many people from elsewhere in the British Empire would have a similar status. Even Canadian citizenship (the earliest in the British Commonwealth, besides Irish) was only created in 1946. --Avenue (talk) 15:16, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any news for old time cases ([1])? In dewp it is solved via category Historic Person (Italy). Thank you, Conny (talk) 13:23, 4 March 2015 (UTC).[reply]

I'd also like this resolved. For example, there are many Britons (the Celtic group of tribes described by Celtic Britons (Q849967), not the modern group described by British (Q842438)) on Wikidata who existed before the concept of nation-state existed on the island of Great Britain (that came about in the time of the Anglo-Saxons). Many currently point to the United Kingdom as "country of citizenship" because Wikipedia says they're "British", but the UK did not exist yet. Is it okay to use ethnic group (P172) in these cases, and point to their tribe or tribal group, and leave country of citizenship (P27) empty? I think that there should be a property which defines a "place a person is from" (how we use demonyms in English) without needing to bother with concepts like citizenship, which didn't exist for many people. People can be "from a place" without being recognised as a citizen. People can also obtain citizenship of a place without being a 'person from' (even in their own opinion) of that place. Maybe residence (P551) is a good way to do that? --BurritoBazooka (talk) 01:03, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Bottask proposal[edit]

Should my bot check links to this items on a regular basis and fix wrong entries if this could be done automatically? Look at the list Wikidata:Database_reports/Constraint_violations/P27#Values statistics there are some common false entries like Q29520 which should be: Q148. Or e.g. Q1110 which should be deleted if I am correct. --Sk!d (talk) 14:58, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I asked User_talk:Kizar#P107:Q4167410 to fix Q29520. I don't think he minds if you do it. There is also Wikidata:Bot_requests#Q21_on_the_P17_report. -- Docu at 15:04, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: not all China (Q29520) should be changed to People's Republic of China (Q148), some should use Taiwan (Q865) instead. --Stevenliuyi (talk) 16:37, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What about older periods ? Should we relabel Q9008156 from "Imperial China" to "Empire of China" ? --Zolo (talk) 16:49, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'd leave it as Imperial China, only because that's the main alias used on Imperial China. But, seems either is acceptable. Danrok (talk) 17:02, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

IMHO Imperial China (Q9008156) is not suitable because: (1) There are many periods in Chinese history (e.g. Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period (Q242115), Sixteen Kingdoms (Q683551)) are not considered as "empire"; (2) There are some tricky cases such as Yuan dynasty (Q7313). Although Yuan is considered as an imperial Chinese dynasty, it was part of Mongol Empire (Q12557). I think we need to find a way to specify the dynasty and/or kingdom a person lived, but I'm not sure what's the best way to do it. --Stevenliuyi (talk) 17:32, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Another problem is about the definition of "citizenship". It's a well-defined concept for all modern countries, but many historical countries don't have this concept. For instance, can we say that Johann Adam Schall von Bell (Q76732) and Ferdinand Verbiest (Q378277) are citizens of China? --Stevenliuyi (talk) 07:31, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I will now start to remove United Federation of Planets (Q1110). I will not change China (Q29520) as my bot does not know if People's Republic of China (Q148) or Taiwan (Q865) is correct. Also should i change England (Q21) i don't think this is correct as it is only a part of United Kingdom (Q145) which seems to be correct and has many more entries. --Sk!d (talk) 23:09, 15 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How to do when a person had several nationalities, successively or at the same time ?[edit]

The most prominent example I could think of, right now, is Albert Einstein ? should he be considered, German, Swiss, apatrid, American ? it seems there is a "unique value" constraint on that property…

For people who became american (a lot of them), but came from another country ? which nationality should be prefered ? the "original", the "present", the "nationality at time of death" ?

Also what about people who have more than one passport (just because laws vary around the world and in some countries, gaining a nationality, through marriage for example, does not make you loose your previous nationality, or for Jewish people, all around the world, that have simultaneously a US/French/GB (or any other country) passport, and an Israeli one ?

In my opinion, this value should not be limited to one, or there would need to be some "dates" values linked… and even in that case, that does not solve the "double-nationality" value ?

What is the consensus, now ? and is there one ? --Hsarrazin (talk) 01:40, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is no unique constraint on this property. Have a look at Albert Einstein (Q937), there are already several values for P27. Soon it will be possible to add a qualifier with the period of time the citizenship refers to; the Date-Datetype is supposed to go live by this week. Then it'll be possible to distinguish between "double nationalities" and former nationalities. Does this answer your question?--Kompakt (talk) 06:08, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

medieval and early modern persons[edit]

Recently this property has been added by bots to items on medieval or early modern persons, probably using Wikipedia-categories as sources. This applying of a rather modern concept is a rather bad idea IMO. The concept of nation (Q597897) only begins to emerge in this time, the terms are used quite loosely (cf. e. g. http://bonaelitterae.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/britons-bretons-and-germans/). There are enough problems already concerning the 19th or 20th century (cf. e. g. Wikidata:Forum#Deutschland = Deutschland?). And the relevant Wikipedia-categories are usually ill-defined, heavily contested and often misapplied. --HHill (talk) 17:19, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be challenging the very existence of this property. A similar proposal was archived. --Nemo 16:22, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the link! No, challenging the very existence of this property is not my intention, I just want to see it applied correctly. Biographies of persons living in the 19th or 20th century create the bulk of items on humans in Wikidata, to most of these the concept of country of citizenship (P27) can easily be applied (and yes I'd prefer the approach proposed on Project chat). --HHill (talk) 17:16, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Property only useful for persons from this and last century/propery values too complicated?[edit]

First let me say that this is probably not the first time something like this has been discussed, but I think the problem has not been resolved yet (we talked this about on the German project chat page a few days ago).

One problem with this property is outlined above at #medieval and early modern persons: Some states changed quite often, it's really a mess to get this right for persons from those states. E.g. the concept of a citizenship of the state Germany starts to exist in the year 1913 (maybe also 1871, not sure about that), everything before was either another state or at least did not know the concept "citizenship" from a legal point of view. What could be an alternative is a property "nationality of citizenship", how it was proposed originally (see https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Property_proposal/Archive/1#P27). Then this property could also be correct for no-longer existing states (or state-like concepts) if we define e.g. nationality=German as nationality of any state that was a German state (now what's a German state? :). To summarize this a bit: At the moment I find this property a bit too generic and useless, maybe as first step the description should really emphasize that this should only be used for persons who really have a citizenship of this modern state (and not any previous state which has been "merged" into that state). And also emphasize to leave this property if one is not sure about that. Another example how complicated this topic can be: On the German Wikipedia the talk page for the category "Germans" is 180 KB in size. Lots of discussion happened on which persons should be in this category and of what categories that one should be a sub-category (e.g. of "persons by citizenship"). The same discussion/problem that was discussed there applies in large parts to Wikidata as well. --Bthfan (talk) 17:10, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

BTW: If we decide to create/use a property "nationality" (German/French/...) we would still need a text to explain who is actually German (or of another nationality), but for that we could reuse discussion results from the various Wikipedias. Right now this property is just too difficult for many states IMHO (due to wars, merger of countries, seperations, etc.), it would be some kind-of nightmare to fix this for all persons. --Bthfan (talk) 17:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, not all properties are useful for any Wikipedia or any biographic article.
In the Russian language Wikipedia, infoboxes in biography articles generally illustrate the changes of country of citizenship over the time. Example: here.
To store idiosyncratic definitions of one or the other Wikipedia, categories there can be used or specific new properties could be created. --- Jura 15:07, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Leave this constraint at the bottom of the page[edit]

This constraint comprises so many items using Template:Q that it exceeds the maximum allowed - causing script errors and not listing labels as expected.

This constraint was still active (see constraint report), but invisible on this page because of the comment tags and hard to find when editing the page because it was buried amongst the discussion. I've moved this back next to the other constraints and replaced Template:Q with plain links to solve the problem of Template:Q being called too many times. If we really don't want it, we should just remove it. - Nikki (talk) 12:29, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Use of this property in the scope of history[edit]

I hope I can approach this topic without opening a Pandora's box (Q937164) (oder auf Deutsch: ohne ein Fass aufzumachen), but I keep thinking about the use of this property in the scope of history. I'm sure that many Wikidatans are aware of the problems connected with the use of this property for historic persons. In short, many persons are said to have been citizens of states that didn't exist at the time. Example: Giovanni Boccaccio (Q1402) lived in the 14th century, five centuries before the state of Italy (Q38) existed. I'm no expert on Italian history, so I don't know how to fix this. all I know is that citizenship is a different thing than ethnicity (for that, we have ethnic group (P172)).

One complicated example I do know a bit about is Germany. In the 19th century, people living in the German Reich were citizens of their respective territories, e.g. the Kingdoms of Saxony, Bavarias, Württemberg, Prussia, Hannover, not to speak of all the small duchies. When we go back further, it gets more particular and way more complicated. For simplicity's sake, let's look forward. On July 22, 1913, citizens of states within the German Reich were additionally declared citizens of the Reich itself. This meant that if you were a citizen of Prussia at the time, you automatically became 'Reichsangehöriger'. This 'double citizenship' (though a legal scholar might disagree with the term) remained until Februar 5, 1934, when Nazi legislation dissolved former citizenships of particular states. Also, after the annexation of Austria in 1938, on Juli 3 all Austrian citizens were declared German citizens (deutsche Staatsbürger).

After World War II, it gets more complicated. After the foundation of the Federal Republic of Germany and the German Democratic Republic, the former saw all citizens living in the GDR as German citizens, while on February 20, 1967 the GDR declared all of its citizens 'citizens of the GDR'. So when I was born, I was considered a citizen of the GDR by the GDR and a German citizen by the FRG. The confusion ended on October 3, 1990, when the FRG incorporated the GDR into itself.

Other legal concerns aside, the citizenship of persons on Wikidata should be reviewed according to the time they lived. When can, I think, argue, that every person considered a 'Reichsangehöriger' since 1913 can be called a "German citizen" and rendered as such. For people living in the GDR, we could try looking for the places they lived (or died) in the time between 1967 and 1990 to determine if they were likely to have been GDR citizens.

What we should do with the citizens of particular German states before 1934 (especially before 1913), is another matter.

And then there are innumerable other cases in other parts of the world, but I'll leave that to people who are familiar with them. Jonathan Groß (talk) 09:47, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I added an illustration to your post ;)

I had been wondering if we should try to develop constraints that check dates of birth/death/floruit against values used in P27. --- Jura 13:27, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There already is one at wrong_nationality.--- Jura 12:58, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Another point is that some of labels in use for some of the former countries might not be suitable in conjunction with this property. "citizen of Weimar Republic" sounds like a city-state. Maybe it would need a dedicated item with a label different from the one for the period in history. --- Jura 12:15, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Jura1, you made me smile with your "Weimar republic nationality" words, those who know a little history know it's about Germany before the Nazis. Its reminds me from the discussion I'm having about Estonia (Q191) established 1991 (vs Interwar Estonia (Q2174038) established 1918)... Baltic countries generally consider being in a continuity row the same as they were in 1918... It still startles me as there has been a physical disappearance of them in 1940... More generally speaking, has anyone proposed to make a new nationality property alike P27 but only with items such as Estonians (Q1147273) // French (Q121842), not the country in themselves ? So that it would be for instance more easier to tell that Karl Marx (Q9061) was "actually" Germans (Q42884) instead of searching P27 the good then existing country (which can lead to absurdities such as Q16403221#P27 born and deceased whils Estonia did not exist at all and in pratice). Bouzinac ^{💬●✒️●💛} 19:54, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Even this is odd (currently 100 people born before 653). --- Jura 23:04, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ouh là là, j'ai ouvert deux fiches au hasard et il y a eu du vandalisme... (suppression des deux derniers caractères d'années....) Bouzinac ^{💬●✒️●💛} 12:33, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Naturalization[edit]

@Jonathan Groß, Jura1: : good points ; somebody raise a similar question today on the french chat (Wikidata:Bistro) about a painter from Netherlands and who got naturalised in France in 1547 (Corneille de Lyon (Q720941)). I suggested to put the claim like this :

⟨ Corneille de Lyon (Q720941)  

 ⟩ country of citizenship (P27) ⟨ Kingdom of France (Q70972)  

 ⟩
statement is subject of (P805) ⟨ Letters patent of naturalisation (Q3236974)  

 ⟩
start time (P580) ⟨ "1547" ⟩

Does it seem good to you? How can it be improved? (maybe with more precise or other qualifiers).

Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 15:22, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"start time" seems fine. "Subject of" would generally lead to an item about the nationality of this person. Maybe there is a better one than "Determination method"? --- Jura 15:35, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

subproperty of country?[edit]

The country (P17) property means "located in country", not "is from country". In fact country (P17) is a subproperty of location (P276). Therefore, this property should not be a subproperty of country. (If someone is a citizen of a country, it doesn't mean he/she is located in that country.) I propose to remove subproperty of country (or change to another). Jefft0 (talk) 17:32, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Jefft0: this property was add by Filceolaire (Special:Diff/223221491). I don't think that country (P17) really means « located in country ». The english description of P17 is « sovereign state of this item » wich seems rather consistent with description of P27 : « the object is a country that recognizes the subject as its citizen ». I think we should keep it. Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 14:53, 19 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

statelessness (Q223050)[edit]

It seems we have around 1000 items with a country of citizenship (P27) statelessness (Q223050) (query). That's not a valid country and the intended meaning seems to be the same as country of citizenship (P27) novalue. Is there any reason why they shouldn't be changed to country of citizenship (P27) novalue? - Nikki (talk) 14:55, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You can't add statements and sitelinks on "novalue". Are there cases where the current solution is problematic?
--- Jura 15:03, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not asking whether Q233050 is correct, because it isn't (nobody is a citizen of "statelessness", even if humans can figure out the intended meaning). It is not the "current solution" either, there are plenty of items correctly using novalue. I only wanted to know whether novalue could mean anything other than statelessness.

Q233050 will continue to exist either way, so you can continue to add statements and sitelinks to it either way. If the link between novalue and Q233050 is so important, that does not mean we should abuse the data model and use Q233050 instead of novalue, it means we should find a proper generic way to express what novalue means which can be used for any property. For example, a new property "novalue defined as" to be used on properties would allow us to create a statement like P27 "novalue defined as" Q233050.

- Nikki (talk) 18:19, 6 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that the label of this property was originally 'nationality', of 'citizenship'. In that way, statelessness is much more meaningful than 'no value', since the situation of being stateless often produces many problems in real life. There are even treaties about that problem. The solution which Nikki suggests (making a connection between novalue and Q233050 with a property-property for P27) is interesting though, I hope that works out. In that case, infoboxes etc. could still whow 'stateless' (or the same term in another language) based on 'novalue' here. Bever (talk) 00:49, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I found that Joseph Brodsky has now both kinds of values "novalue" as well as statelessness. The problem with "novalue" is invisiblity in standard SPARQL query:

Items used: Joseph Brodsky (Q862)

Properties used: country of citizenship (P27)

SELECT ?citizenship ?citizenshipLabel  WHERE {
  wd:Q862 wdt:P27 ?citizenship.  
SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "en". }
}

Try it!>

Result is :

[


{
"citizenship": "http://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q30",
"citizenshipLabel": "United States of America"
},
{
"citizenship": "http://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q15180",
"citizenshipLabel": "Soviet Union"
},
{
"citizenship": "http://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q223050",
"citizenshipLabel": "statelessness"
}

] SergeiRevkov (talk) 11:22, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there are people who have no citizenship in legal way. And if this statement is about citizenship then stateless is valid value. Taz (talk) 20:07, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just saw Albert Einstein statelessness example. Theoretically, I would have put no value but I understand the meaning of apatride value. Bouzinac ^{💬●✒️●💛} 05:56, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Former country[edit]

When a person was a citizen of a former country, it is still valid.. only current countries are an invalid restriction. Thanks, GerardM (talk) 15:12, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Agree - this doesn't seem to be a very helpful restriction at all. Andrew Gray (talk) 18:16, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support Jefferson Davis (Q162269) certainly had country of citizenship (P27) Confederate States (Q81931). Let's get rid of the one-of constraint. Runner1928 (talk) 22:07, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

currently the one-off constraint seems to need to explicitly enumerate every country or former country. Is there a way we can adjust the constraint to be an instance of any subclass of country (Q6256) (which would then also include historical country (Q3024240)) --Oravrattas (talk) 07:38, 5 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In our language (hungarian) this statement refer to citizenship, not meaning to which country the person "belong" or where he was born. But this is nonsense in cases of historical figures who lived before forming of this legal status in country which they lived. Taz (talk) 20:03, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikidata:Property proposal/Nationality[edit]

There is the ongoing Wikidata:Property proposal/Nationality perhaps tackling some of the problems above. --Marsupium (talk) 19:11, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Permit "proposed country"[edit]

The constraint with this property currently does not permit instances of proposed country (Q28864179). It should because individuals should be able to identify with the citizenship of their choice even in the absence of external recognition. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:55, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple UK values - reality check pls[edit]

I've done an exercise to amend P27 values for people from the UK, along the lines of ensuring that all of the flavours of UK the person was a citizen of, are represented in their record. Some of those flavours are:

Q145 United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland 12 April 1927 -
Q174193 United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland 1 January 1801 - 12 April 1927
Q161885 Kingdom of Great Britain 1 May 1707 –1801
Q179876 Kingdom of England

Thus for a person born in 1900 and expiring in 1950, I'm giving them two values: Q145 and Q174193 ... and I'm working on adding PQs such as end date and end cause - e.g. https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q12285904&type=revision&diff=712129483&oldid=712088876

User:Pierrette13 has announced that they do not see the sense in this, and has reverted a couple of my edits. See talk. As far as I understand, Pierrette13 objects that the 1927 change from United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland to United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a matter of legal form only (Gtranslate: "In my opinion, it can not be said for the same person that she comes from the United Kingdom and that she comes from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, that makes no sense, especially since the question nationality, and not the legal form of the country.")

My view is that our 1900-1950 person was a citizen of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, when a state of that name existed. They were also a citizen of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland when a state of that name existed. My use case is a wish to query wikidata for people who were a citizen of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and find our person; and to query wikidata for people who were a citizen of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and find our person. If the person's record does not contain both values, then that query can only be done inferentially by looking at date of birth.

Is there / what is the consensus on P27 carrying multiple UK values? @Pierrette13: --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:23, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article en:United Kingdom is sitelinked to United Kingdom (Q145), but as far as I can see the history of the article doesn't start at 1927, and the article doesn't even mention any change in 1927. I suggest changing the inception on United Kingdom (Q145) to recognize the longer period of the state's existence, even if it has changed over time. Then no multiple citizenships are necessary just because the form of the state changed a bit. Ghouston (talk) 00:26, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's probably worth saying that wikidata items are defined by their properties, not their sitelinks. And you're placing quite a lot of dependence on an article that seems to know nothing of the w:en:Royal and Parliamentary Titles Act 1927, which established the naming of the state described by Q145. I'm kinda understanding your response to say "even though a succession of states and their start and end dates can be defined - e.g. in Q145, Q174193, Q161885, Q179876 - we should instead have an overarching Generic UK item. And instead of making people citizens of the state they were a citizen of, we make them a citizen of the (made up) Generic UK? Is that really what you mean? And if so, does that hold for only the first two states - United Kingdom (Q145) & United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (Q174193) or, as the en.wiki article goes further back, are you suggesting wrapping Kingdom of GB, and Kingdom of England citizenships into the generic UK? --Tagishsimon (talk) 04:49, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'd say there needs to be a generic UK item to link with the Wikipedia articles, and since they are already linked with United Kingdom (Q145), that's probably the right item. How far back to go, I don't know. In most cases I'd expect there's enough continuity at each change that a citizen (subject) retains their status, so it doesn't really make sense to talk about a new citizenship. Ghouston (talk) 05:49, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

country of citizenship (P27) has been kicked backwards and forwards a lot, as to whether it should be read narrowly as connecting somebody to a particular state that existed in their lifetime, or should be read more widely to allow a painter to be designated eg French or Italian or Flemish at a time when those states may not have existed in their current form, or even (Flemish) not necessarily existed as independent states granting 'citizenship' at all. I have always found the whole area a minefield, that I wish somebody would definitively clean up, and have never known what value to give a P27 statement for somebody born before 1900, so confess that as a result I have left it blank for somebody else to add, leaving the decision to them. Pinging @Multichill, Andrew Gray: who have both at times had thoughts or suggestions in this area. Jheald (talk) 09:04, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I also stopped adding country of citizenship (P27). We currently don't have a proper way to model the connection of a historical person with a contemporary country. Probably easiest to show with examples:

Rembrandt (Q5598) should have some sort of link with Netherlands (Q55)
Peter Paul Rubens (Q5599) should have some sort of link with Belgium (Q31)

Of course you run into the same problem for England and the UK. This problem needs to be solved before doing any large scale editing. Multichill (talk) 19:33, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's not easy. Australian citizenship didn't exist before 1949, yet Australia as a federation has existed since 1901 and the term "Australian" was in use in the 19th century. To say that the United Kingdom was created in 1927 or the Netherlands perhaps in 1815 or 1945 or China in 1949 is to ignore much of the history of these countries as states. Ghouston (talk) 01:38, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A German state has existed for quite a while. It's boundaries, name and form of government have changed over time, but does it make sense to speak of separate citizenships for Weimar Republic (Q41304), Nazi Germany (Q7318), West Germany (Q713750) and Germany (Q183)? Ghouston (talk) 08:03, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

jurisdiction (Q471855) marks a boundary. --Succu (talk) 21:09, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we only have one item United States of America (Q30), not one for each time its boundaries changed. Even though the state today is far larger than the one founded in 1776, the continuity is favoured over the discontinuity. Ghouston (talk) 22:59, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As Jheald says, I made some notes on it earlier in the year (building on the Wales/Australia discussions), with the hope that we could have a broad discussion about the best way forward - but it's a really complex issue and it's been really hard to pull it all together clearly. I'll try and find some more time to work on it since the problem certainly won't go away... Andrew Gray (talk) 20:54, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See also Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2020/02#UK_1922_or_1927?. Ghouston (talk) 01:28, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What I got from that discussion was that a) Wikipedia typically has a separate article for a country whenever it changes name, but usually not in other cases like change in territory or constitution, and these separate items then get inherited by Wikidata b) in international law/diplomacy, it's generally understood when a country is considered a "continuing state" c) the UK was considered a "continuing state" in the 1920s when the Irish Free State obtained independence, but Wikipedia still has a separate article for the UK under its old name. But that doesn't mean we have to consider the corresponding Wikidata item to be a separate country; it can be an historical period of the main item instead. Ghouston (talk) 01:39, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have read all you were saying, I'm coming here since I've had a debate on something that was before obvious for me about Estonia here. My two cents :

I am starting to think there should no longer countries in themselves into the country of citizenship (P27). But more items like Estonians (Q1147273) rather than the country/regime/constitution that have/had specific start and end time. Then, if someone would like to query French, he would not look into France (Q142), French Third Republic (Q70802) etc but more with French (Q121842), and would cope more easily with their dates (consistency dates checks).
Ghouston (talk • contribs • logs), you said something interesting about Australia before 1947. The then australian on their passports, which country was labelled on it? Bouzinac ^{💬●✒️●💛} 20:25, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Separate items for citizenships and nationalities have been proposed previously. Perhaps it would help. The term "Australian" for people living in Australia was already used in the 19th century, before Australia had even been federated as a state, e.g., [2]. According to [3], Australia started issuing passports after federation, and didn't even restrict it to British subjects until 1938, but it seems that passports were not used much prior to WW1, and there was a more flexible attitude to nationality. Ghouston (talk) 21:26, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Stateless people[edit]

I think no value Help is the appropriate value for this. Do anyone concurs ? There is currently about 100 results with statelessness (Q223050)   per this query which causes constraint violations. I added to them the value no value Help which makes this useless with quickstatement (see this lot). Shall we delete the statement with « apatrids » for items with poor reference ? How de we add an example with « no value » for stateless people ? author TomT0m / talk page 21:35, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe actually use P27 instead of P17? ;) Sjoerd de Bruin (talk) 21:37, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

/o\

Done author TomT0m / talk page 07:47, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sort-of related: There are 224 items that have member of political party (P102) independent politician (Q327591). --Yair rand (talk) 21:40, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It might be easier to fix the constraint to accept the item. novalue is pretty meaningless. --- Jura 09:20, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Jura1: It’s the opposite of meaningless, it has a meaning defined in the Wikibase data model. It’s exactly the right meaning here : see https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikibase/DataModel#PropertyNoValueSnak and it’s consistent in all of Wikidata : we want to emphasize that the person has no country of citizenship at that period. This would be a shame to make an exception (a lot of exception actually, see the example of the political party non-membership) in our data model when it’s handled by design in the underlying data model. author TomT0m / talk page 09:31, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that stateless people are actually a group with the same citizenship, travel documents .. --- Jura 03:20, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Representing them may be a problem, but the value of country of citizenship (P27) as currently formulated is supposed to be a country. <no value> is OK. Ghouston (talk) 05:10, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- It can easily be adjusted to include it, besides, it's currently a non-mandatory constraint. --- Jura 08:16, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that stateless people are actually a group with the same citizenship, travel documents reference for this ? author TomT0m / talk page 09:01, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

novalue qualified with « instance of : countryless »[edit]

I see in Alexander Grothendieck (Q77141)   that atm there is a statement

⟨ subject ⟩ country of citizenship (P27) ⟨ no value Help ⟩
instance of (P31) ⟨ statelessness (Q223050)  

 ⟩
end time (P582) ⟨ 1971 ⟩

. The « instance of » qualifier seems useless, does anyone know why someone would want it ? (also ping @Ayack:) as I found the issue thaks to him) author TomT0m / talk page 09:24, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Replacing with has cause (P828) sounds more logical. Sjoerd de Bruin (talk) 09:47, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sjoerddebruin: It’s no more logical, it’s not a « cause ». It’s a logical tautology : by definition, a countryless person is a person which has no country of citizenship, and conversely. For « cause » see Help:Modeling causes, it’s intended to reflect the sequence of events that lead to a state of the world : einstein became countryless for some reason, probably because he was excluded from the citizenship by the authorities of Germany, or because he willingly rejected his citizenship. There is no causal relationship between « having no country of citizenship » and « beeing countryless », it’s just exactly the same thing said in two different manner, a redundancy. author TomT0m / talk page 10:01, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just move the qualifier value to P27 and it's fine. --- Jura 03:21, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Objects elsewhere from Country but has country nationality[edit]

For instance US air bases in Germany or Japan should be given country of citizenship (P27)=USA and country (P17)=Japan, don't you think? I don't understand why this P27 should apply only to persons. Bouzinac (talk) 21:42, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Bouzinac: An airbase doesn't have "citizenship". Jheald (talk) 12:35, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Republic/Kindom of Italy and other similar entity with P27 that changes in hisory[edit]

:Hello, I think that this point should be discussed on Property talk:P27, because, as far as I know, what happened in Italy in 1946 also happened many times in many other countries. In France, we changed from Kingdom to Republic to Empire to Kingdom to another Kingdom to Republic to Empire to Republic in less than a century between 1789 and 1876, but Victor Hugo only had one country of citizenship, France. The country does not change when the political Constitution changes. (Of course that was different before 1860, when Italy was not a unified political entity yet.) Seudo (talk) 16:15, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
You are right, I think I oversimplified the situation taking in consideration only the political history of Italy, properties should have consistency wherever they are applied. Just a recap... And I have questions : ) Essentially from the moment unity in a political entity is achieved P27 should be uniformed. It's ok the distinction before/after 1860 (in Italy, obvs) but the transition from kingodm to republic should be simplified. Is it for the sake of efficient querying? What if I need to query, for ex., all the people for specific profession during the kingdom. (I answer myself, I should get better at sparql-ing)... --Divudi85 (talk) 18:16, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I'm copying here the start of a discussion about multiple P27 statements and I ping the people with whom I talked @Alexmar983, Epìdosis, Seudo: and I link here one of the items with multiple P27 [4] --Divudi85 (talk) 18:29, 19 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

From the discussion above: I also stopped adding country of citizenship (P27). We currently don't have a proper way to model the connection of a historical person with a contemporary country. From Wikidata:Project chat/Archive/2014/05#Country of citizenship: The cititzenship property is quite useless, it could be removed. I tend to agree with these opinions. So, when in doubt, just delete the P27 statement. --colt_browning (talk) 11:33, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

RE: Nationality: Republic of Ireland[edit]

Article 2 of Bunreacht na hÉireann (The Irish Constitution) states the following: "It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage." REF:“Airteagal 2. Tá gach duine a shaolaítear in oileán na hÉireann, ar a n-áirítear a oileáin agus a fharraigí, i dteideal, agus tá de cheart oidhreachta aige nó aici, a bheith páirteach i náisiún na hÉireann. Tá an teideal sin freisin ag na daoine go léir atá cáilithe ar shlí eile de réir dlí chun bheith ina saoránaigh d'Éirinn. Ina theannta sin, is mór ag náisiún na hÉireann a choibhneas speisialta le daoine de bhunadh na hÉireann atá ina gcónaí ar an gcoigríoch agus arb ionann féiniúlacht agus oidhreacht chultúir dóibh agus do náisiún na hÉireann. ) Article 4 states the following "[the] name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland" (REF:"Éire is ainm don Stát nó, sa Sacs-Bhéarla", Ireland. , and is recognized as such by many if not all international institutions, why is Wikidata content to use this term? Number 22 of 1948 The Republic of Ireland Act, 1948 repealed the Executive Authority (External Relations) Act, 1936, to declare that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland. This Act did not change the official name of the State which remains Éire or Ireland, for instance the State was no longer subservient to the British Monarchy but instead a Republic! For example, I was born in Londonderry (or Doire in our native tongue), and like others have the right to claim Irish and or British citizenship. "The British and Irish Governments declare that it is their joint understanding that the term "the people of Northern Ireland" in paragraph (vi) of Article 1 of this Agreement means, for the purposes of giving effect to this provision, all persons born in Northern Ireland and having, at the time of their birth, at least one parent who is a British citizen, an Irish citizen or is otherwise entitled to reside in Northern Ireland without any restriction on their period of residence." (Ref:https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/IE%20GB_980410_Northern%20Ireland%20Agreement.pdf ) Ériugena (talk) 12:05, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Query: US Americans by date of birth[edit]

Items used: United States of America (Q30)   , human (Q5)

Properties used: country of citizenship (P27)   , date of birth (P569)   , instance of (P31)

# Number of US Americans by century 
# by Jura1, 2020-12-07
# 
# 2020 => 21st century
# 1990,2000 => 20th century
# 1801,1899,1900 => 19th century
# etc.
# millennium precision dates can be in any century

SELECT 
  ?century
  (COUNT(?item) as ?count)
  (SAMPLE(?d) as ?sample_date)
  (SAMPLE(?item) as ?sample_person)
WHERE
{
    ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q30 ; wdt:P569 ?d ; wdt:P31 wd:Q5 . 
    FILTER(!ISBLANK(?d)) 
    BIND(FLOOR((YEAR(?d)-1)/100)+1 as ?century)
}
GROUP BY ?century
ORDER BY DESC(?century)

Try it!

constraint applying to a circa/approximate date in P27 (birth dates)[edit]

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T168379

For historical persons, when birth year has value of century as unknown, e.g. Li Bing (Q4308625), the constraint for country of citizenship (P27) for this item is a bit problematic , isn't it? The year 535 when the dynasty dissolved is part of 6th century. Is there a recommendation of how shall this be applied? Thank you for your help. Thank you.

jshieh (talk) 16:38, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@ShiehJ: The constraints are OK, Wikidata should not warn about this, see attached Phabricator bug report. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 22:49, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

model people in the Austro-Hungary[edit]

Please advise how the entity, Ladislas D'Orcy (Q104813263), born of a part of the Austro-Hungarian aristocratic families, should have citizenship statement created? At the writing, there is a constraint issue. Thank you for your help. jshieh (talk) 19:29, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ShiehJ: it's actually explained in property constraint (P2302)none-of constraint (Q52558054) statement : this state had separate citizenships for Cisleithania (Q533534) and Kingdom of Hungary (Q25395037). I can't say anything about the validity of this statement, as it is unsourced, nor what do we do in case we don't know what citizenship is the good one. It's currently affecting a lot of Qid. --Jahl de Vautban (talk) 19:52, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jahl de Vautban: Thanks so much for pointing out the two entities: Cisleithania (Q533534) and Kingdom of Hungary (Q25395037) for the name entities that could be decidedly determined. I suppose since his birth place was in Austria, then Cisleithania (Q533534) could be used as the country of his citizenship. Worse case scenario, no citizenship for entities that cannot be determined. Much appreciated your time. jshieh (talk) 20:12, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Denmark (Q35) vs. Kingdom of Denmark (Q756617)[edit]

I suggest specifying Denmark (Q35) as an invalid value for country of citizenship (P27) using a none-of constraint (Q52558054).

Citizenship is issued by the Kingdom, not by “mainland Denmark”, Farao Islands or Greenland respectively (see e.g. [5]). People are Danish citizens with equal status no matter which of the three parts of the kingdom they come from.

You can request a Greenlandic passport, but this only affects the language used in the physical passport (see [6]). It does not affect the citizenship, and generally it is not public information which variant a person has requested (or whether they even own a physical passport at all).

Kingdom of Denmark (Q756617) is currently only used with country of citizenship (P27) on 75 items, while Denmark (Q35) is used on thousands of items. All those should be migrated to use Kingdom of Denmark (Q756617) instead. --C960657 (talk) 19:34, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Faeroese and Greenlandic people do not have European Union civil rights^[1]. Bouzinac ^{💬●✒️●💛} 22:08, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

True. But I don't think you can deduce whether a person has full EU citizen rights based on P27 alone (you need to consider at least P551 also). If a Danish citizen living in Copenhagen moves to Thorshavn, she will loose her EU citizen rights (if I understand the rules correctly), but her citizenship is unchanged. I don't think updating P27 in this event would be appropriate. Similarly, if a Danish citizen moves to Australia, she will loose some EU citizen rights, e.g. the right to vote in elections to the Danish and the European Parliament (with some exceptions), but her citizenship is unchanged. So I don't think the issue about EU citizenship is relevant for my proposal. --C960657 (talk) 15:53, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting, it did not come to my mind that a simple move could made you become full Danish or full Faroese. Reading that page ,en:Danish passport, it is all the more confusing as it would seem to be possible to choose between a Danish +EU passport or a Faroe without EU passport, don't know if there is specific conditions to obtaining one or the other. Nevertheless, there clearly exist a 'nationality' without eu rights . What about Aruba and Curaçao? There are other specific territory such as Hong Kong passport that are British (but you cannot move to Britain) so nationality and citizenship may not be the same. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bouzinac (talk • contribs) at 19:26, 1 February 2022 (UTC).[reply]

According to en:Right_of_abode_in_Hong_Kong, “Hong Kong does not have its own nationality law and natural-born residents are generally Chinese citizens”. There are probably other countries, e.g. some disputed territories, where the situation is less clear. We will have to deal with those on a case-by-case basis. This proposal is about Denmark specifically. --C960657 (talk) 17:21, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have added the proposed suggestion constraint (Q62026391) in this edit. --19:52, 21 February 2022 (UTC) C960657 (talk) 19:52, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

↑ https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=OJ%3AL%3A1995%3A054%3ATOC

'Country of citizenship' in the case of Ireland[edit]

There is no such thing as Citizenship of the Republic of Ireland! For instance, in the case of 'Citizenship through birth';" Everyone born on the island of Ireland before 1st January 2005 is automatically entitled to citizenship." (Reference:Immigrant Council of Ireland) (Reference:[7]) Ériugena (talk) 11:46, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ériugena: Do I understand you correctly that you don’t like the English label of Republic of Ireland (Q27)? --Emu (talk) 12:16, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is no citizenship through birth but nationality through birth. Frenchl (talk) 18:42, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the modern Irish context, there is little distinction between the two terms [citizenship and nationality] and they are used interchangeably. (w:en:Irish nationality law#Terminology--Emu (talk) 19:49, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We are on a global website. In international law the distinction is very clear. On their glossary, the United Nations only use the term 'nationality'. They define nationality as the legal bond between an individual and a State, and “citizenship” as the set of rights and duties that individuals have by virtue of their full membership within a State. In international law, 'nationality' is never used to define ethnicity. Frenchl (talk) 20:15, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the document you linked yourself:

Your definition is indeed mentioned but not as a universally accepted definition but rather an opinion: (Some authors argue …)
Nationality is used “more often” not “always” in international law – and the distinction is even muddier in national law: Although nationality is the term more often used in international law, at the national level, both the terms nationality and citizenship are used, sometimes with different meanings.
Nationality can mean ethnicity: Nationality is also one of the grounds for persecution in the definition of a refugee. In this respect, it should be broadly interpreted to not only cover citizenship but also “membership of an ethnic or linguistic group”

I still don’t understand what seems to be the problem in the case of Ireland. --Emu (talk) 20:51, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Again, these considerations are only true at national level, and only for certain countries. The exclusive use of the term 'citizenship' on wikidata is not acceptable. The United Nations define jus soli, jus sanguinis, and naturalization, as ways to define or acquire nationality, not citizenship. (p. 120 & 145) Frenchl (talk) 21:25, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you think that your reading of some United Nations document (that doesn’t even seem to say what you want it to say) should be the reason to change the labels or the modeling of Wikidata properties? --Emu (talk) 21:38, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We are on a global encyclopedia and an international glossary of the United Nations is a more neutral source of information than American or German laws. Frenchl (talk) 21:47, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see. I don’t think that this is how Wikidata works though. --Emu (talk) 22:26, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well no, wikidata reflects the vision of moderately educated Americans, just because they are the most numerous here. Frenchl (talk) 22:36, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They don't even understand the difference between nationality and citizenship, even though they have two separate pages for "United States nationality law" and "Citizenship of the United States". Frenchl (talk) 22:43, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see. --Emu (talk) 23:01, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removing notion of legality from this property[edit]

I looked at two previous attempts to create a nationality property, and both times it's failed partly because not enough people commenting saw a difference between what the proposed property would do and what country of citizenship (P27) and ethnic group (P172) do. I still feel uncomfortable with either country of citizenship (P27) and ethnic group (P172) in many circumstances because of the notion of legality for this property (country of citizenship (P27)) and conflation of a national demonym and ethnicity in the other (ethnic group (P172)).
I would use country of citizenship (P27) more often if we could remove the implication that this should be tied to a legal status. The alternate label of "(legal) nationality" and this property's description that says "country that recognizes the subject as its citizen" imply that this is a legal status, even though no constraints exist on the property to enforce this. Could we could remove the "(legal)" from the alt label "(legal) nationality" and change the description to something like "country that has the subject as its citizen regardless of legal status" to encourage more people to use it?
This would encourage more use of country of citizenship (P27) when someone is known as an American or British or South African, for example, but their legal status irrelevant to or challenges that identity (e.g. long time visa holders and undocumented folks). Also, these aren't ethnicities, so I don't use country of citizenship (P27) (though many do). Another situation this would help in is when people's ethnicities, nationalities, and country of citizenship may be different. In the case of Aysa Hakimjan (Q105871598), no references are given to confirm Aysa's / Aisa's legal status as having been a Russian or Finnish citizen. Aysa is ethnically Tatar, immigrated to Finland at age 20/21, and is known as a "Finnish Tatar artist." Aysa's Wikidata does list both Russian Federation and Finland as country of citizenship (P27), but I personally would feel uncomfortable adding these statements because of the implication of legal status, which may be untrue, difficult to confirm, or irrelevant to their defacto citizenship or identity. Sonoet2 (talk) 15:32, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Most of times, "citizen" (or its equivalent terms in many, if not most languages, including French, Spanish and Italian) implies a legal status, so I don't think that would solve anything. Also, I don't think there is a point in encouraging people to use more this property, it appears that this property is widely deployed along wikidata, it has been almost automatically added on a large scale (though it's probable in some cases it is legally not accurate, strictly speaking). I don't think a solution is to remove the legal question from the definition, without it would become a meaningless «catch-all» category. Property:P551 seems the correct property for people living somewhere without having legal citizenship (or if there is a serious doubt about it).

Though, I understand the problem you're pointing out (and there is actually a similar issue about 'native language' : in most cases impossible to confirm and in many cases arguable or wrong). A better solution may be to require a reference for the statement. In cases where the statement is reasonnably doubtful and unconfirmed, it could be removed and replaced with more accurate property like the residence. CaféBuzz (talk) 06:38, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t think we need to encourage the use of country of citizenship (P27), it’s already used far too liberally. The usage of country of citizenship (P27) should in principle be restricted to legal citizenship within the notion of the modern Nation state (i. e. after 1648/1815). It is true that Wikidata lacks a „catch-all category“ for everything that somehow feels American, Chinese or Polish but the main reason for that is the perceived impossibility to model and source such a property. See also Wikidata:Nationality.

As for Aysa Hakimjan (Q105871598): I added a (sub-par) reference for his Finnish citizenship. The ethnic group (P172) statement is currently deprecated. I don’t know if “Finnish Tatar“ ethnicity is a thing but if it is, it’s probably not too hard to find a reliable source for that statement. I don’t see a big problem in this case. --Emu (talk) 11:33, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I support the creation of a nationality property as a legal identification. Frenchl (talk) 18:41, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How would you define the concept of nationality vs. the concept of citizenship? In German language, “Nationalität” has all sorts of meanings but one of them is “Staatsbürgerschaft“. --Emu (talk) 19:54, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe because Staatsbürgerschaft is citizenship. Nationality is a legal identification establishing the person as a national, of a sovereign state. It is acquried at birth through jus sanguinis or jus soli, or after birth through naturalization. Citizenship is the ability of that individual to take part in the civil and political life of a state. Frenchl (talk) 20:09, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, let’s say we accept this distinction – what would that mean for Wikidata? --Emu (talk) 20:55, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A new property with Nationality -> French nationality for example. Frenchl (talk) 21:17, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So we would have two statements:

Emmanuel Macron (Q3052772)country of citizenship (P27)France (Q142)
Emmanuel Macron (Q3052772)"Nationality"French nationality law (Q1164879)

What would be the point of this? --Emu (talk) 21:41, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The point of this is that 15 Millions French nationals are not French citizens. For example, this French footballer is not a French citizen, because he is a minor. So there is an error on Wikidata. And actually no one in France says Macron is of French citizenship. We say he holds French nationality.

We can't pretend that the concept of nationality doesn't exist when the Article 15 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "Everyone has the right to a nationality".

Wikidata is like Wikipedia: biased in favour of the Anglo-Saxon vision of the concept of nationality. This needs to change. Frenchl (talk) 22:04, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the name "Country of citizenship" is an error because people can have European Union citizenship, and last time I checked, the EU was not a country. It's also an error because people can have New Caledonian citizenship, and yet New Caledonia is not a country. Frenchl (talk) 22:16, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Could it be that you just want to change the French label of this property from pays de citoyenneté to nationalité? I don't speak French so I can’t comment on whether this would be a good idea but it sure seems like your understanding of nationalité is pretty much what the property at hand wants to describe. (P.S.: EU citizenship is called citizenship for – well, basically marketing reasons, it isn’t considered to be a real citizenship) --Emu (talk) 22:36, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, as I told you, citoyenneté is not the same as nationalité, and nationalité is not the translation for citizenship. We need two properties. Citizenship is citoyenneté and nationality is nationalité. I've spent a lot of time on the subject, I've read a lot and I've looked at how things are done in many countries, I've taken on board the opinions of people who have spent weeks working on Wikipedia articles on nationality law, and I'm sure of that. Frenchl (talk) 23:02, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We cannot categorize French women of 19th century as French citizens. Women were not citizens, they were only nationals. A "nationality" property is urgently needed. Frenchl (talk) 23:14, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It sure seems like you are trying to force through a specific understanding of those words, possibly influenced by your native language. You are of course free to propose another property through the appropriate forum. --Emu (talk) 23:38, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but Wikidata is an international and thus multilingual project. And this is not a specific understanding of those words, this is the majority use in international law, and the choice of the United Nations. I will of course propose a new property. (P.S.: Calling European Union citizenship a marketing tool and an unreal citizenship, without any reliable source saying this, demonstrates your total lack of seriousness on the subject.) Frenchl (talk) 11:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

P27:Q40, died<1918-11-12[edit]

I have prepared a complex constraint violation for P27: "Austria" citizenship. Anyone who died before 1918 and is given Q40 as a nationality is in this list (over 3000 items!)

Notified participants of WikiProject Austria Pallor (talk) 18:14, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I’ve just fixed a couple of entries. --Emu (talk) 20:13, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, shouldn't all of them be set as rank deprecated?

Unfortunately, it seems not to be possible to set ranks using QuickStatements at the moment:

Help:QuickStatements#Limitations

Recently, User:Habst set a lot of old IAAF ids to deprecated using WikiTrackBot:

M2k~dewiki (talk) 00:44, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I did it using wikibase-edit here: https://github.com/hpr/fixWaIds/blob/main/fixWaIds.mts

I am on a little wikiBreak this week but I am open to doing another run for these P27 statements next week if desired? --Habst (talk) 03:56, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Puerto Rico[edit]

We have stumbled upon this restriction and I like to state a couple of issues: (read wikipedia for additional info)

People born before April 11, 1899 were never given US "nationality".
Sometimes people born in colonies are described as nationals of their colony, not the metropoli. At Wikidata I've seen both ways: the dividing line is fuzzy and from what I've seen, (in Latin American nationals) the more close in time or action to the Independence process, the more likely is someone to be described as a national of their colony. I'm sure we won't have any reference for >99% of such nationality statements.
(I don't know anything about Guam or American Samoa) Puerto Ricans has a distinctive nationality with a special legal status and different rights. It's not exactly the same as US natinonailty.
Personally I reject colonial notions of nationality, and I don't think we at Wikidata should adscribe, without proper discussion, to such notions.

Ignacio Rodríguez (talk) 15:51, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

country of citizenship (P27) is often used to convey vibes about the identity of a person. Such statements should be deleted or – if they come with proper sources – deprecated. The property is to be used exclusively for citizenship as a legal concept within the modern nation state. It’s not about “being described” and it’s not about nationality. The en.wp article seems to be both verbose and vague to say the least but I think the bottom line is that Puerto Ricans are American citizens in the sense of country of citizenship (P27). --Emu (talk) 18:00, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Funny that you say that it's not about nationality, when even one of the english aliases of P27 are "national of" and the name or alias of the property in most of the languages I can recognize uses some form of "nationality". This heterogeneity should show you that not everyone here agrees with the notion of "citizenship as a legal concept within the modern nation state". Besides, without a certificate you cannot properly assert the citizenship as a legal concept. Most of the claims on this property shoulld be deleted.

Also you didn't answer what to do about people born in Puerto Rico before April 11, 1899. Currently Wikidata soft restricts putting Puerto Rico, and even a bot changes it to United States (which is factually wrong)

And third, I don't know when we decided to deprecate non-modern concepts of nationality and adscribe exclusively to said colonial anglosaxon notions. (I know we are barbaric nations with primitve understanding of modern nation state building such as the countries in Central Europe, very stable and not prone to war, annexation and such, but our primitive notions should be reflected in this project as well) Ignacio Rodríguez (talk) 13:42, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And, as people has written here before me, citizenship is a different concept. To be consistent with the status quo I propose we then run a bot to delete country of citizenship (P27) from every woman that died before her country gave her full citizenship. Also from all children and people that died before adulthood. Ignacio Rodríguez (talk) 13:51, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

“Nationality” has many meanings in the English language, see this previous discussion. For this reason, country of citizenship (P27) was specifically renamed from “nationality” to “country of citizenship” during the |property proposal process to make sure that this property just refers to nationality in the purely legal sense, i. e. citizenship. Numerous proposals to add another “nationality” property have failed and for good reasons as nobody has managed to come up with a modeling and sourcing concept yet.

Besides, without a certificate you cannot properly assert the citizenship as a legal concept Doesn’t matter, Wikidata isn’t about the truth, it’s about statements with verifiable sources.
Also you didn't answer what to do about people born in Puerto Rico before April 11, 1899. Depends. If they are Spanish or American citizens, a corresponding statement should be added (or retained). If they are not, it shouldn’t. If I understand the article you provided correctly, there has never been a Puerto Rican citizenship (in the sense of country of citizenship (P27)) as Puerto Rico has never been a sovereign country and has never been part of a sovereign country that defers citizenship to subnational entities.
To be consistent with the status quo I propose we then run a bot to delete country of citizenship (P27) from every woman that died before her country gave her full citizenship. Also from all children and people that died before adulthood Again, this seems to be some personal interpretation on the basis of some statutes of some countries. I fail to see why this should influence Wikidata’s modeling.

As for the rest of your analysis, I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Personally, I think the notion of the modern nation state and the modern idea of citizenship are absurd products of the 19. century. That doesn’t make them less real. Again, if you think you can come up with a working model of how to implement “nationality” in the sense of “Puerto Rican nationality”, please propose another property. --Emu (talk) 14:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

w:Citizenship is a no less vague and difficult concept to model at Wikidata than Nationality. The two concepts are very closely related, and the difference between the two is not a straight line. This is reflected on the fact that many, many aliases of this very property include the notion of Nationality, including the English one.

during the property proposal process: 1 comment by a clueless guy at the very start of this project is not a property proposal like we have today, be serious.

Numerous proposals to add another “nationality” property I don't want another property, I want to extend this one. I'm saying that the "purely legal sense" (in the Western legal codes) shouldn't be the main and only way to describe someone's nationality/citizenship. P27 is the de-facto property for human (Q5) to include nationality, a property many people are concerned with, and equally as "real" as all the properties humans adscribe to matter (this is, imaginary, not real). Maybe if you are so concerned with a separate property for legal modern state citizenship (a concept yourself called absurd), then that should be the new property. As Wikidata deals with humans from all history, the lack of a nationality property for most of them (most people were born before this absurd concept came into state enforcing) is concerning to me.

If they are Spanish or American citizens, a corresponding statement should be added (or retained) I'm complaining about the bot that moves that claim to United States, a factually wrong change for people born before April 11, 1899.

I fail to see why this should influence Wikidata’s modeling because the model you're defending deals is based on "purely legal sense", and in this "purely legal sense" women and children were excluded in most, not some of the countries.

Ignacio Rodríguez (talk) 15:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that you and others want to muddy the waters by extending the meaning of country of citizenship (P27) to a general vibe. That’s not the meaning of the property and never has been, that’s not the predominant use of the property, that’s not a useful type of information and this type of property has been rejected in the past.

I can see your problem with the autofix though so I changed the statement. --Emu (talk) 15:59, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the autofix. I don't think there's has been enough discussion, but I won't engage in this thread anymore. I won't stop thinking that citizenship is just as a general vibe as nationality. Both are imaginary concepts people attribute themselves, and one is not more real than the other just because an imaginary institution such as a "modern nation state" enforces it. That's the reason it's difficult to draw a straight line between the two. And I definitely reject the notion that nationality is a useless type of information, specially for nations that don't have the one and only specific way of organizing themselves ("modern" nation-state), such as indigenous nations and colonies. Ignacio Rodríguez (talk) 18:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC) PS: there is ontologies out there that don't fall into this trap, and the result isn't vague and unmanageable. Just over 2000 different "vibes"]. Now that I see ethnic group (P172) has alias "nationality" I think I will use that property for such cases. Still, I think both properties should be merged and don't have "modern western contemporary legal nation state membership" in one side and "all the other forms of human organization" in the other. [reply]

Austria post 1918[edit]

Pallor, M2k~dewiki, Habst: We currently have several country of citizenship (P27) values that don’t really make sense because they refer to name changes or changes of government but not changes to the identity of the state of Austria (Q40), namely:

Republic of German-Austria (Q268970) (63 instances)
First Republic of Austria (Q518101) (98 instances)
Federal State of Austria (Q176495) (41 instances)

I would propose to add a constraint with autofix pattern. Do you agree? --Emu (talk) 16:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the ping, I don't think Q176495 and Q518101 indicate a citizenship granting entity even if P31=sovereign state (Q3624078) is marked. So personally, I agree, but it would be lucky if WikiProject Austria participants supported it. Pallor (talk) 17:38, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let’s ping them

Notified participants of WikiProject Austria --Emu (talk) 00:29, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know anything about the substance of the change (though what Pallor said seems reasonable), but an autofix pattern would not require any action from my bot User:WikiTrackBot as discussed above so that would be convenient in that way. --Habst (talk) 21:42, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=OJ%3AL%3A1995%3A054%3ATOC

[1]

Property talk:P27

Contents

Documentation

Discussion[edit]

Maintenance requests[edit]

Renaming[edit]

"Sovereign State"[edit]

old times[edit]

Bottask proposal[edit]

How to do when a person had several nationalities, successively or at the same time ?[edit]

medieval and early modern persons[edit]

Property only useful for persons from this and last century/propery values too complicated?[edit]

Leave this constraint at the bottom of the page[edit]

Use of this property in the scope of history[edit]

Naturalization[edit]

subproperty of country?[edit]

statelessness (Q223050)[edit]

Former country[edit]

Wikidata:Property proposal/Nationality[edit]

Permit "proposed country"[edit]

Multiple UK values - reality check pls[edit]

Stateless people[edit]

novalue qualified with « instance of : countryless »[edit]

Objects elsewhere from Country but has country nationality[edit]

Republic/Kindom of Italy and other similar entity with P27 that changes in hisory[edit]

RE: Nationality: Republic of Ireland[edit]

Query: US Americans by date of birth[edit]

constraint applying to a circa/approximate date in P27 (birth dates)[edit]

model people in the Austro-Hungary[edit]

Denmark (Q35) vs. Kingdom of Denmark (Q756617)[edit]

'Country of citizenship' in the case of Ireland[edit]

Removing notion of legality from this property[edit]

P27:Q40, died<1918-11-12[edit]

Puerto Rico[edit]

Austria post 1918[edit]

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