User talk:TomT0m

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Previous discussion was archived at User talk:TomT0m/Archive 1 on 2015-08-10.

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GZWDer (talkcontribs)

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Your feedback matters: Final reminder to take the global Wikimedia survey

MediaWiki message delivery (talkcontribs)

(Sorry to write in Engilsh)

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Pasleim (talkcontribs)

This is a kind reminder that the following properties were created more than six months ago: approximation algorithm (P1171), admissible rule in (P2577). As of today, these properties are used on less than five items. As the proposer of these properties you probably want to change the unfortunate situation by adding a few statements to items.

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Share your experience and feedback as a Wikimedian in this global survey

MediaWiki message delivery (talkcontribs)
  1. This survey is primarily meant to get feedback on the Wikimedia Foundation's current work, not long-term strategy.
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Magnus Manske (talkcontribs)

Hi, you uploaded a catalog to Mix'n'match, with a list of domestic animal breeds. As you may have heard, I had a little accident with that tool, and the labels and descriptions have been overwritten. I have restored most catalogs, but I can't find the source data for this one. Do you by any chance still have that file, or know where I could download/scrape the data? The source site isn't overly helpful in that regard...

Reply to "FAO races"
Xaris333 (talkcontribs)

Hello. I am using modules for fetch from Wikidata some informations to Wikipedia templates. I like your solution in Project chat but I need help to change the Module.

For example, I am using w:el:Module:Τρέχονπρωτάθλημα to find the current season. For example, in Cypriot First Division (Q155965), the module find the current season by checking has as part (P527). The current season is the item with the largest edition number (P393).

Can you change this by the way you said it the Project chat? May the current season is the one with not have followed by (P156) or has no value for followed by (P156). Pls tell me if that is possible because that way if much easier to fetch that kind of data from wikidata.

TomT0m (talkcontribs)

Hi, just implemented Module:Event_sequence_number. It implements the same idea that was used in the query. The potential problem is that it requires as many item loading that there is previous events so it's not usable in too long sequences as the number of item loads is expensive - I'm thinking of other ideas.

For the problem of finding the latest season, I think it's enough to use ranks, exactly as we use ranks for the most recent datas for population.

Xaris333 (talkcontribs)

How to use ranks?

TomT0m (talkcontribs)

Pardon me, this is not possible in that case using "instance of" as it has no inverse properties. But your use of "edition of" suggest another thing : can't you use the "edition of" relationship ? To know how to use ranks please see Help:Rank. Only the best rank statements are by default used in queries and lua.

But I also implemented something with your suggestion to follow the "followed by" property in the (renamed) Module:Event_sequence.

Xaris333 (talkcontribs)

I already known rank. I am using it a lot. Ok, its working for latest season only if I have a list of all season on the league item with the propery has as part (P527). Like Cypriot First Division (Q155965). It is that ok?

TomT0m (talkcontribs)

As said in the previous comment, I'd prefer another property. "Has part" in this case is definitely not used in the usual sense of Help:BMP. Maybe edition(s) (P747) would fit better.

Another remark from your item, the victories as qualifiers are redundant. There is already the list of victories in the club item isn't it ? You definitely can do this with a query : The following query uses these:

select ?team ?teamLabel (count(?championship) as ?num_vict) (group_concat(coalesce(year(?date),""); separator=", ") as ?years) where {
    select ?championship ?team ?date {
    	?championship wdt:P31 wd:Q155965 ;
       	              wdt:P1346 ?team .
        ?championship wdt:P582 ?date .
    } order by asc(?date)
  SERVICE wikibase:label {
    bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "en, el" .
} group by ?team ?teamLabel order by desc(?num_vict)

Try it! and that without having to repeat the data everywhere.

Xaris333 (talkcontribs)

Οκ, οκ. If I find easy way to fetch data from wikidata to Wikipedia templates for: 1) latest season 2) first season 3) previous season 4) last champions

I wouldn't need to repeat that data. I have modules for all these but I need modules that are using different properties. Can you help?

W:el:Module:Τρέχονπρωτάθλημα current season

W:el:Module:Προηγούμενοςπρωταθλητής last champions

W:el:Module:Προηγούμενοπρωτάθλημα previous season

W:el:Module:Πρώτηπερίοδος first season

They all are in English language. May I should ask to project chat for ideas.

TomT0m (talkcontribs)

I don't understand what you mean by "I need modules that are using different properties" - followed/preceded by ? . Do you understand a little the stuffs I wrote in Module:Event_sequence ?

It seems you don't use any other module in yours. Usually we use existing modules to help us writing codes like Module:Wikidata who does a few thing to avoid writing over and over again the same code patterns. In "Event sequence", I used Module:PropertyPath which is powerful and can easily be used for your problems here, but it needs you to copy a few modules itself into elwiki to be usable there - For example the template {{Show path items}} uses PropertyPath it shows how easily it becomes to get the previous season of say 1949–50 Cypriot First Division (Q629654)   with {{Show Path Items|Q629654|preceded by}} :

(here I write the property label in english but in elwiki you would be able to use the greek label if you want to) But you'll have to copy a few modules from here to elwiki to get there :

I'm writing a script to automatically import the modules to elwiki, I'll get you in touch when that's done.

You also use the query I wrote with {{Wikidata list}} in your wikipedia to get an automatically updated table.

Xaris333 (talkcontribs)

"different properties" from those I am using now. I preferred followed/preceded by.

I have copied all modules. But I have stopped when I get a message

Script error: The function "main" does not exist.

Don't know what to do about that.

TomT0m (talkcontribs)

Can you point me to the place you get this error ?

Xaris333 (talkcontribs)

Article .

Is using w:el:Module:Τρέχονπρωτάθλημα.

TomT0m (talkcontribs)

OK, I get it. There is several problems indeed. You need to get familiar with programming with modules. There is indeed no "main" function in that module, so the error message is correct.

To call a module within a template, you must provide a function with a single parameter usually called "frame". It's not necessarily called "main" but the name of function must be the the same as used in the #invoke call. You can access the other parameters {{#invoke:youmodule|main|arg1|arg2|plop=bidou}} - here arg1, arg2 and plop thanks through "frame.args". frame.args[1] will have the value "arg1", 2 "arg2" and frame.args["plop"] will have the values "bidou".

The function I wrote don't work like that, so we need to write new one that call my functions.

Such a function would look like

function p.main(frame)
    local arg1 = frame.args[1]
    local arg2 = frame.args[2]
    local plop = frame.args["plop"]
    -- The useful code here

We kind write several of such functions in a module, for example we could write a second function "show_last_event"

function p.show_last_event(frame)
    local start_item = frame.args[1]
    local event_type_item = frame.args[2]
    local item = p.last_in_sequence(start_item, event_type_item)

    -- write here the code to generate a link from an item

    return link

Now the parameters of my functions needs a start_item and an event type. The start_item could be the Qid of the current season, as time won't turn back, and the event type is the item of the page, probably, as it seem to be the item of the competition class. So we can replace the line local event_type_item = frame.args[2] with local event_type_item = frame.args[2] or mw.wikibase.getEntityObject() to set this value by default to the item of the current page.

Xaris333 (talkcontribs)

Thanks for your time and help. My knowledge about programming are not good. I guess we are talking about different things. If you find an easy way to find the first season, the current season, the previous season and the previous winner please tell me. Thanks for all.

TomT0m (talkcontribs)

Oh, I see you replaced with another module. I was working on tighting everything together, this would have definitely worked, as long as the infobox has a parameter for a sample season in the sequence, but it's as you like. If you want my opinion with the complexity of the code you write you definitely could be able to make the rest work.

Xaris333 (talkcontribs)

Please continue what you were doing. I thought you was done, but the templates continue to show the message Script error: The function "main" does not exist so I restore the module. I am not the written of the Module. A Wikipedia friend helps me. Do what you think is correct and I will see the final result.

Reply to "Lua"
YULdigitalpreservation (talkcontribs)

Thank you for your help refining the property proposal for file format magic numbers. I appreciate your input.

Reply to "File format magic numbers"
H4stings (talkcontribs)

Salut TomT0m. Je rebondis sur ta réponse sur Wikidata:Project chat/Archive/2016/07 à propos de mon besoin de saisir les expériences d'entraîneur : j'avoue ne pas avoir bien compris ta 2e solution. Pour rappel :

create a specific "manager of association football manager (Q628099)", subclass of football manager, and put a statement

<manager of association football manager (Q628099)> has quality (P1552) <value in qualifier>
club/team search <France national football team (Q47774)  >

Ma compréhension c'est que tu proposes que je saisisse toutes les étapes de toutes les carrières des entraîneurs de l'histoire du foot dans un même élément ("manager of association football manager (Q628099)") - je pense donc avoir mal compris.

Pour être franc, en termes de lisibilité et de maintenabilité, je préfère de très loin que tout soit saisi dans l'élément de l'entraîneur. Sinon tout le monde me tombera dessus en me disant que c'est impossible à mettre à jour, etc. et on risque le rejet du truc.

Le problème c'est qu'à mes yeux, ni position held (P39), ni occupation (P106) ni employer (P108) ne sont adaptés - pour des raisons indiquées là-bas. Vu que la demande de création d'une propriété spécifique patauge, je pense réutiliser member of sports team (P54), avec un qualifier distinctif.

Mais je suis dispo pour échanger sur ce sujet... Merci. ++

TomT0m (talkcontribs)

Alors, je me suis manifestement gouré, et j'aurai du voir ça en prévisualisation. Je proposais la créations d'éléments "manager du PSG", "Manager du réal madrid", "Manager de l'équipe de france" en tant qu'éléments postes. Chaque manager du PSG étant un manager de club de foot, s'en est une sous-classe.

Ensuite pour lier "Manager de l'équipe de france" à l'équipe de france, je proposais la construction suivante, mais qui requiert de toute façon quand même une propriété spécifique. Je proposerai la création d'une propriété "équipe" en fait. C'est pas déjà fait ? C'est ou la demande de propriété spécifique ?

TomT0m (talkcontribs)

Sinon il y a aussi le qualificateur "de".

Reply to "head coach, etc."
JakobVoss (talkcontribs)

Hi, in search for useful templates I stumbled upon Template:Query instances and similar templates that generate SPARQL. I understand creation of these templates but they add another layer of complexity with little benefit only for those familiar with the existence of this templates. As long as "Query instances" does not generate a dynamic list of instances but a SPARQL query, it's better to directly use SPARQL instead.

TomT0m (talkcontribs)

Query instances is probably the simplest of all. Take for example the "non overlap" discussion on Project Chat right now, you'll better write a template to write these one this will be far more efficient. Especially with what I called "partial queries", who can be combined to make more complicated constraints (check the subcategories).

SPARQL is the ASM, those template can be arbitrary higher level.

Plus those templates can be parametered, which make them reusable without digging in the SPARQL.

JakobVoss (talkcontribs)

Yes they are useful for you, familiar with them. But others need to be digging into the templates while they could better learn SPARQL instead. Sure it depends on the complexity of the query but the more template and parameters there are, the more complex they get and in the end its not much easier than SPARQL. Just keep in mind not to reinvent another syntax for SPARQL with all of its complexity :-)

TomT0m (talkcontribs)

It's always higher level than sparql. I don't reinvent SPARQL, and deal with a number of problem that can occurs while writing it : auxiliary variables that sometimes has to be named, avoid collision in variable names, ... Some are far from trivial and I really don't want to write this every day, take for example. This is complex and makes a query far from easy to read and write without reading the template.

Reply to "Template:Query instances and similar"
Oliv0 (talkcontribs)

arrgh du Flow!... bon je n'ai pas bien compris ce que tu dis en mail pour au sujet du mémoire de licence sur l'édition Wikidata depuis Wikipédia; pour la PDD Wikidata les digressions sur Hitler peintre ne sont pas dans les questions, et il faut la lancer dès qu'un consensus est possible car il y a eu assez de polémiques inutiles qu'on aurait évitées en la lançant il y a un an comme WP en allemand.

TomT0m (talkcontribs)

C'est pas dans les questions mais ça fait parti d'une campagne fatigante de mise en relief de problème (en l'occurrence pseudos problèmes vu qu'il y a des solutions propres) posés par Wikidata qui pourraient influencer les votes des uns et des autres. Je me suis d'ailleurs fait bloquer si j'ai bien compris parce que je répondai à ce genre de trucs. Ça pourrait très bien se reproduire d'ailleurs si je me laisse aller à re-répondre, hélas, surtout dans un contexte ou on m'a ouvertement écarté dans l'espoit d'apaiser les débats, et ça ne supprendrait pas plus de monde que mon blocage actuel, mais je digresse.

À part ça, je crois que dans une des discussions en cour auquel tu participe il est question d'afficher/masquer les infos Wikidata en un clic, il en est question dans le rapport aussi. L'équipe de développement est aussi à la recherche de commentaires, donc si les wikipédiens motivés pour parler de tout ça pouvaient aussi le faire avec l'équipe de développement au lieux de travailler de manière redondante sur une solution purement locale, ce serait bien, c'est pour ça que je veux faire de la pub pour ce rapport assez riche et la discussion autour.

Jérémy-Günther-Heinz Jähnick (talkcontribs)

Pour continuer la digression, il y a bien une stratégie de la part des anti-Wikidata pour réussir à obtenir au départ des blocages légers de programmateurs pour empêcher un déploiement de Wikidata, blocage qui à chaque nouvelle occasion est doublé, comme l'est ton topic ban.

Cet été, je vais prendre contact avec des contributeurs venant d'autres Wikipédias et quelques programmateurs. Puis je vais créer Wikidata Biography sur le même modèle que Wikidata Cycling. L'idée qui sera mise en œuvre c'est la création de programmes capables de fonctionner dans une vingtaine de langues. Au cours de mes voyages de Wikipédias en Wikipédias, j'ai vu que ça intéressait plutôt pas mal. Je reprendrai à peu près les mêmes règles de fonctionnement que mon projet qui prévoit notamment que ceux qui ont nuit d'une manière ou d'une autre sont exclus des processus décisionnels. De cette manière, au lieu que le temps disponible soit consacré aux débats stériles, il pourra servir à être à l'écroute de ceux qui sont décidés à aller de l'avant. Ceci permettra par la même occasion de prononcer la fermeture du Projet:Wikidata de FR Wiki.

Oliv0 (talkcontribs)

Rien de concerté me semble-t-il dans le topic-ban suivi de blocages doublés automatiques pour TomT0m, au départ c'est son attitude assez "rentre-dedans" sur la durée et ensuite c'est les règles qu'ont fixées les admins et qu'ils sont obligés de suivre même s'ils les trouvent trop dures pour des transgressions bénignes: c'est entre eux qu'ils pourraient réfléchir aux modalités de cette nouvelle méthode qu'ils ont, le topic-ban.

Pour l'internationalisation de l'infobox Biographie2, Wikipédia français a déjà tellement travaillé sur ces infobox que c'est ses codes qui seront utiles aux autres, et le projet:Wikidata français restera de toute façon car sa vocation de base est d'être l'atelier d'amélioration en fonction des anomalies remarquées, par exemple pour éliminer les redondances dans un même champ du genre activités ou entre un champ et un autre (c'est pour ça que personnellement je préférerais un archivage moins rapide et l'actualité Wikidata hebdomadaire sur une autre page, mais on va dire que je radote :=) ).

TomT0m (talkcontribs)

Euh non, tout a démarré alors que la seule motivation à mon premier blocage était de trop répondre. C'est juste complètement spécieux. C'est ensuite que je suis parfois un peu sorti de mes gonds devant tant d'incompréhension et d'acharnement (les attaques sur Wikidata avec des trucs auxquels j'ai déjà répondu 10 fois, ça use).

TomT0m (talkcontribs)

Sur l'archivage, si tu penses qu'une section ne devrait pas l'être, c'est possible de faire en sorte qu'elle ne le soit pas, comme c'est le cas pour la première section du projet Wikidata.

Jérémy-Günther-Heinz Jähnick (talkcontribs)

« sa vocation de base est d'être l'atelier d'amélioration en fonction des anomalies remarquées »... oui, sauf que cet atelier a malheureusement été infiltré. C'était prévisible, j'avais à cette occasion proposé dès le début un topic ban mais je n'ai pas été suivi. Je discutais justement hier avec un contributeur allemand au sujet des problèmes qui sont apparus, l'impression est la même, tout avait très bien commencé puis ont débarqué quelques individus problématiques. Donc soit c'est résolu, soit il sera remplacé par un autre projet qui fonctionnera aussi bien que le mien.

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