Property talk:P1477

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Documentation

birth name
full name of a person at birth, if different from their current, generally used name (samples: John Peter Doe for Joe Doe, Ann Smith for Ann Miller)
DescriptionName at birth, only if different from current name
Representsname at birth (Q2507958), secular name (Q96243199), maiden name (Q1376230)
Data typeMonolingual text
Template parameter|birth name= in en:Template:Infobox person and various others (en:Template:Infobox sportsperson, en:Template:Infobox dancer)
Domain
According to this template: person
According to statements in the property:
human (Q5), animal (Q729) or fictional character (Q95074)
When possible, data should only be stored as statements
ExampleSaint John Paul II (Q989)Karol Józef Wojtyła
Barack Obama (Q76)Barack Hussein Obama II
Caitlyn Jenner (Q365144)William Bruce Jenner
SourceInfobox on Wikipedia page (note: this information should be moved to a property statement; use property source website for the property (P1896))
Robot and gadget jobsCould be easily imported from infoboxes by various bots
Tracking: usageCategory:Pages using Wikidata property P1477 (Q20079238)
See alsofamily name (P734), patronym or matronym for this person (P5056), family name identical to this given name (P1533), Scandinavian middle family name (P6978), married name (P2562)
Lists
Living people protection classproperty that may violate privacy (Q44601380)
Proposal discussionProposal discussion
Current uses
Total126,776
Main statement126,698>99.9% of uses
Qualifier57<0.1% of uses
Reference21<0.1% of uses
[create Create a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here]
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1477#Allowed qualifiers, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
Type “human (Q5), animal (Q729), fictional character (Q95074): element must contain property “instance of (P31)” with classes “human (Q5), animal (Q729), fictional character (Q95074)” or their subclasses (defined using subclass of (P279)). (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1477#type Q5, Q729, Q95074, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
Single value: this property generally contains a single value. (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1477#Single value, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
Allowed entity types are Wikibase item (Q29934200): the property may only be used on a certain entity type (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1477#allowed entity types, SPARQL (new)
Scope is as main value (Q54828448): the property must be used by specified way only (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1477#scope, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
Pattern ^(.*) (.*)$ will be automatically replaced to \1 \2.
Testing: TODO list

This property is being used by:

Please notify projects that use this property before big changes (renaming, deletion, merge with another property, etc.)


English variants[edit]

Can we just have "en" and not the variants? In this situation English is English, not en-gb, en-ca, or any other.  — billinghurst sDrewth 13:43, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Agree. DGtal (talk) 05:36, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Usage question[edit]

If a person has two or even three parallel birth names one should probably add all (common in multilingual countries or minorities). Are we also supposed to add non native language birth names (via transcript) or should this property be limited to birth languages only? DGtal (talk) 05:39, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

since there is now a specific name in native language (P1559), I guess this is not restricted, but allows transcription in all languages (or at least alphabets) - am I wrong ? :) --Hsarrazin (talk) 12:06, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
name in native language (P1559) is used for current name, whilst P1477 deals with birth name which is often quite different, especially for immigrants and married women. DGtal (talk) 23:56, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Monolingual text?[edit]

How do I know what language a combination of names has? From what I know, "Ingmar Bergman" has a combination of an Old Norse first name and a Swedish last name. My current private first name is from United States and my last name is Gaelic, but I was born with a Swedish last name. My wife's first name is a combination of Latin and Hebrew and her last name before she married me was Swedish. My sisters first name is French but has a Swedish spelling. My fathers first name is Norwegian, but has a Swedish spelling. I also have other names, one is Latin in origin, but has been modified to fit a Swedish tongue, my third first name is Danish. My grandfathers first name was "Scandinavian", but that's not regarded as a language and I do not think the software accepts it! -- Innocent bystander (talk) 19:38, 3 March 2015 (UTC) (Confused)

How about using it with the language the birth registry was in? --- Jura 18:04, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Then it is controlled by the native language of the man who wrote the census-books, within the limits of the language-laws of course, and has nothing to do with what the name looks like, the language of the parents or their ethnic group(s)!
Everybody born in Sweden 1808-1999 would then have Swedish names, whatever the name looks like. And from 1600-1808 everybody would have Swedish, Finnish or maybe German names. -- Innocent bystander (talk) 09:49, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
Imho monolingual text for P1477 is a mistake and should be changed to string like all other name properties. Just think about rules like: first name = 40%, last name = 40 % + nationaly = 20 %. Please see special instructions for middle name and bi-nationalites. He's got a French-Swedish name prononced German with a light Russian accent. --Kolja21 (talk) 09:07, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

strange error on description editing[edit]

I'm trying to edit the Italian description of this property, like this: "nome completo di una persona alla nascita, se diverso dal nome generalmente usato". But when I try to save it, I get this error:

An error occurred while saving. Your changes could not be completed. Details: Property P513 already has label "syntymänimi" associated with language code fi.

What the ... ? Candalua (talk) 15:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

And when I try to fix the fi-label of P513, I got an error related to the cy-label of P753! Great! -- Innocent bystander (talk) 15:53, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
Upon trying to add a description for sco, I get the same error message as you, Candalua. Maybe we should bring this up at project chat? --AmaryllisGardener talk 16:38, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
This sounds like a bug in the software, so bringing it up at WD:DEV is the way to go. --Pasleim (talk) 17:03, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

What is the difference between this property and P1559?[edit]

What is the difference between this property and name in native language (P1559)?Juan Mayordomo (talk) 19:29, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

I guess, P1477 shows the birth name in the language of the country of birth, while P1599 shows the final name (can be identical with the birth name) in the native language of the person. For instance a person who did not change its name does not have an entry at P1477, but if its native language uses another alphabet than the latin one then it is displayed that way at P1599. Or if somebody is born in the USA but has as native language Japanese, then P1477 and P1559 may also be different. --Otets (talk) 12:35, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

@Otets: That's it, and also use P1477 when the person changed name because of marriage, religion, rank, pseudonym, etc... :) --Hsarrazin (talk) 13:06, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Qualifier for name format[edit]

Please see Wikidata_talk:WikiProject_Names#Qualifier_for_name_format.
--- Jura 13:38, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Single Value[edit]

How on Earth can a property of data type "Monolingual text" be constrained to a single value? The whole point of monolingual text is that it allows us to have a value for each of multiple languages. The isn't the English Wikidata; it's supposed to be internationalised. --RexxS (talk) 15:51, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

@RexxS: Mostly agreed here. The point here is that only the name of the person at birth should be given, in the language it was originally written down. But there are many people who were given different names in different languages at birth (like me!). I think the single value constraint was added with the thought of excluding "real names" that were given later in life, but forgot about people having multiple names at birth. Therefore I'm removing the single value constraint. Deryck Chan (talk) 17:36, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, Deryck. I think the problem is wider for me. If I write code for making a Wikidata-aware infobox on Commons, for example, folks expect to see the infobox in their own language. I believe Chinese readers want to see 毛泽东 and English readers want to see Mao Zedong as birth name (P1477) for Mao Zedong (Q5816). I can only do that if we're allowed to put such uncontroversial translations into the statement. That's really what I'm getting at by "internationalisation". --RexxS (talk) 20:42, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
@RexxS: I would disagree with that intended use of this property, because that would lead to loss of information about which name was the original name. As Jura wrote below, I think we shouldn't add translations as main value at all. From the list of allowed qualifiers, it seems that transliterations of names should be added as qualifiers, not as main values. Deryck Chan (talk) 08:59, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

I'll simply register my fundamental disagreement with the logic behind disallowing transliterations or translations for properties such as this. If you put yourselves in the position of the users of the data here, you'll immediately see that they want to see text in their own language whenever possible. The whole purpose of monolingual text is to provide such translations - we have the string datatype for text that is not meant to have that facility, but I can see no advantage in barring editors from adding useful transliterations, as the original value(s) could be indicated as preferred or qualified with stated as (P1932) (which is a string datatype). --RexxS (talk) 13:30, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

  • One would loose the current certainty of having the actual birth name. Even ruwiki uses Latin-script names for people with such a name, not Cyrillic. You can still include transliterations, just add it as a qualifier. --- Jura 00:03, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
    • On the contrary, questions of the certainty of a property value should be provided by a reference, just add one to the appropriate monolingual value. The only exception to adding references is in cases like name in native language (P1559) which is in place of having a reference for the label in the native language. What you lose by not allowing transliterations is that either millions of end users can't see the birth name in their own script, or every single re-user has to write code which reads the property for some languages and the qualifier for other languages. Crazy. --RexxS (talk) 15:06, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

@RexxS, Deryck Chan, Jura1: Hi, I added the constraint once again as a suggested constraint with clarification. I hope this works for everyone. There is currently a discussion over at huwiki about the erroneous data (i.e. transliterations) appearing in infoboxes. – Máté (talk) 15:32, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

I think that's a reasonable compromise. Deryck Chan (talk) 11:13, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Clash with Norwegian (Bokmål/Nynorsk)[edit]

Norwegian (no) has two written forms; Bokmål (nb) and Nynorsk (nn). Personal names are always identical in these two forms. Wikidata doesn't allow you to select Norwegian in the language box; you must select either Bokmål or Nynorsk. See where this is going? Recent example: Dennis Reksten (Q20685285). - Soulkeeper (talk) 09:02, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

That's curious. I didn't realise using Norwegian (no) was forbidden. Maybe use nb / nn depending on the official language that was used on the birth certificate / municipality of birth? Deryck Chan (talk) 11:13, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

property that may violate privacy?[edit]

ChristianKl
ArthurPSmith
d1g
JakobVoss
Jura
Jsamwrites
MisterSynergy
Salgo60
Harshrathod50
Wildly boy
ZI Jony
Ederporto
99of9
Danrok
Eihel
Emw
Fralambert
GZWDer
Ivan A. Krestinin
Jonathan Groß
Joshbaumgartner
Kolja21
Kristbaum
MSGJ
Mattflaschen
MichaelSchoenitzer
Nightwish62
Pablo Busatto
Paperoastro
PinkAmpersand
Srittau
Thierry Caro
Tobias1984
Vennor
Yellowcard
Ivanhercaz
DannyS712
Tinker Bell
Bodhisattwa
Iwan.Aucamp
Cunme
NAH
Gnoeee
The-erinaceous-one
-akko
Pictogram voting comment.svg Notified participants of WikiProject Properties

This is really a continuation of some previous discussion.

The item affected is Vermin Supreme (Q70605). In 2013 he asked English Wikipedia OTRS to remove his birth name, which appears in some sources (which may or may not be reliable). There's currently public sources state that he want to make his birth name private (so I added P1477=somevalue with such source and not deprecate it, but I don't know whether it is a good idea).

So:

  • Should birth name (P1477) be considered a property that may violate privacy? (I have such idea, but I do want more comment.)
  • If someone doesn't want their birth name public, Should Wikidata honor their decision by not including their birth name even if they may be found in sources? (Likely, and it is the practice of Wikipedia). We probably need a way to prevent the data from being imported from external sources in the future. But even if we do not include the actual birth name, it may still be debated alternative solution:
  1. Not adding birth name (P1477) at all (this does not discourage others to readd the data)
  2. Add birth name (P1477) = somevalue and deprecate it, probably tagged by reason for deprecation (P2241)=Q86535474 (but it is currently in RFD)
  3. Add birth name (P1477) = somevalue but not deprecate it
  • What's the proper choice if it is not public knowledge that the person does not want to disclose the information? (I suggest #2)
  • What's the proper choice if it is public knowledge that the person does not want to disclose the information, as in this case? (I suggest #3)

--GZWDer (talk) 20:42, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree with all of the above. Birth name is also sensitive information for trans-gender people. ArthurPSmith (talk) 21:44, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
But what should we do with Vermin Supreme (Q70605)? What should be do with people with private birth name and if there's no public source explicitly stating birth name as "unknown" or "private"?--GZWDer (talk) 21:47, 8 March 2020 (UTC)