Property talk:P69

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educated at
educational institution attended by the subject
Description Institution at which subject was educated
Represents alma mater (Q174376)
Data type Item
Domain
According to this template: person (Q215627)
According to statements in the property:
human (Q5) and fictional character (Q95074)
When possible, data should only be stored as statements
Allowed values educational institution (Q2385804) (note: this should be moved to the property statements)
Example Stephen Hawking (Q17714)University of Oxford (Q34433)
Bertrand Russell (Q33760)University of Cambridge (Q35794)
Henry David Thoreau (Q131149)Harvard University (Q13371)
Tracking: same no label (Q42533337)
Tracking: usage Category:Pages using Wikidata property P69 (Q23908979)
See also student of (P1066), academic degree (P512), category for alumni of educational institution (P3876)
Lists
Proposal discussion Property proposal/Archive/2#P69
Current uses 481,376
[create] Create a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here
Value type “educational institution (Q2385804), fictional educational institution (Q15690029): This property should use items as value that contain property “instance of (P31)”. On these, the value for instance of (P31) should be an item that uses subclass of (P279) with value educational institution (Q2385804), fictional educational institution (Q15690029) (or a subclass thereof).
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P69#Value type Q2385804, Q15690029, SPARQL
Type “human (Q5), fictional character (Q95074): element must contain property “instance of (P31)” with classes “human (Q5), fictional character (Q95074)” or their subclasses (defined using subclass of (P279)).
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P69#Type Q5, Q95074, SPARQL
Qualifiers “start time (P580), end time (P582), academic degree (P512), academic major (P812): this property should be used only with listed qualifiers.
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P69#Allowed qualifiers, SPARQL
Contemporaries:
if [item A] has this property (educated at (P69)) linked to [item B],
then [item A] and [item B] have to coincide or coexist at some point of history.
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P69#Contemporary
Contemporaries:
if [item A] has this property (P69) linked to [item B],
then [item A] and [item B] have to coincide or coexist at some point of history.
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P69#Contemporary, SPARQL
This property is being used by:

Please notify projects that use this property before big changes (renaming, deletion, merge with another property, etc.)

This property is being used by:

Please notify projects that use this property before big changes (renaming, deletion, merge with another property, etc.)

change to "education"[edit]

Can I change the label to education, and the description accordingly ? We should be able to state ~"education: MBA at Harvard". That can would be easy with an "education" property and a qualifier, but that does not work well if the property is called alma mater.--Zolo (talk) 16:29, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

The problem with this is that this property is currently used for institutions that do not offer academic degrees (like pre-university/college institutions, community colleges, vocational schools, etc.). Using it this way will prevent these institutions from being included. --Wylve (talk) 12:48, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Alma Mater doesn't mean much separated from the course you were studying. Should this be a qualifier to an 'education' property?
education:MBA,  alma mater:Harvard, year:2001, grade:not_completed. 
This can be used for various different institutions of various levels but has problems dealing with places where you study at one college but get your degree from a separate university. This happens at Oxford and Cambridge but also applies in Ireland so for me it is
education:BAI, alma mater:UCD, qualification_awarded_by:NUI, year:1977, grade:2.2_honours. 
Maybe 'qualification' would be a better name than 'education'?
Can we use 'alma mater' for a community college if that is where you studied? Maybe 'studied at' would be better than 'alma mater' as it can be used for all levels of education, including primary, secondary, community college etc. In the UK which 'public' school you went to can be more important than your university. Filceolaire (talk) 06:44, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

We don't need the Year-Property, there is already the start date / end date item:

Alma Mater: Harvard
 start date: 2001
 end date: 2004
 education: german studies
 grade:2.2_honours

--McSearch (talk) 17:59, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

You put the major in the 'education' qualifier property rather than the degree. In practice we should probably put both:
Maybe we should have 'college attended' or 'school attended' as an alternative to 'Alma Mater' so this can cover non-university education as well.
I think 'qualification' should be the main property with 'Alma Mater' as a qualifier. This works better when all we know is the letters after the persons name. 'Qualification' also works for professional qualifications (another thing that puts letters after your name).
qualification:Baccalaureatis in Artem Ingenerium (BAI)
 Alma Mater:University College Dublin
 start date:1973
 end date:1977
 major:electrical engineering
 grade:2.2 honours
 qualification awarded by:National University of Ireland
qualification:Chartered Engineer
 as of:1991
 qualification awarded by:Institute of Electrical Engineers
 qualification awarded by:Engineering Council

-- Filceolaire (talk) 22:34, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok, lets see if it works in practice, for example at Pierce Brosnan:
Brosnan was brought up in a Roman Catholic family and educated in a local school run by the de la Salle Brothers.
Brosnan left Ireland on 12 August 1964 and was reunited with his mother and her new husband, William Carmichael, now living in the Scottish village of Longniddry, East Lothian. Later moving back to London, Brosnan was educated at Elliott School, a state comprehensive school in Putney, West London. After leaving school at 16, he decided to be a painter and began training in commercial illustration at Central Saint Martins College of Art and Design. At the Oval House in 1969, he came to a workshop to rehearse. A fire eater was teaching women how to put the flames across the chest while topless, and he decided to join in and learned how to fire-eat. He later trained for three years as an actor at the Drama Centre London. After graduating from the Drama Centre in 1975...
qualification: school
 school/college/university attended: local school run by the  de la Salle brothers
qualification: Comprehensive school
 school/college/university attended: Elliott School
qualification: commercial illustration
 school/college/university attended: University College Dublin
qualification:actor
 school/college/university attended: Drama Centre London
 start date:1972
 end date:1975
Not perfect yet --McSearch (talk) 06:54, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
I think you are mixing 'education' and 'qualification. His qualifications will, in each case, be the exams he passed at the end of each stage of his education - A-levels from his comprehensive, a BA from UCD etc. The question is therefore which is the primary property and which is the qualifier. Education or Qualification?
qualification: unknown
 school/college/university attended: local school run by the Institute of the Brothers of the Christian Schools (Q138579)
qualification: A-levels
 school/college/university attended: Elliott School
qualification: BA
 major: commercial illustration
 school/college/university attended: University College Dublin
qualification: unknown
 major: acting
 school/college/university attended: Drama Centre London
 start date:1972
 end date:1975

alternatively

education: primary school
 school/college/university attended: local school run by the Institute of the Brothers of the Christian Schools (Q138579)
education: Comprehensive school
 school/college/university attended: Elliott School
 qualification: A-levels (or leave blank because we don't know if he passed these)
education: university
 major: commercial illustration
 school/college/university attended: University College Dublin
education:acting
 school/college/university attended: Drama Centre London
 start date:1972
 end date:1975

Which is better? Filceolaire (talk) 22:02, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

The second one, looks good. --McSearch (talk) 17:29, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
I would say either:

graduated?[edit]

Should this field not be used in cases where the student left the institution before graduating? AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 14:00, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

I think this property should be used only when the student has graduated. --Wylve (talk) 12:48, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Well, according to the Wikipedia article on alma mater, "In the modern language in North America, it is often any school, college, or university at which one has studied, and usually, from which one has graduated." That might change things. AutomaticStrikeout 13:34, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
I think this property should be a list of all schools attended, specifically the schools enrolled at, and attended, even if it was only for 1 day. We could always change the label if it causes confusion. Danrok (talk) 15:35, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
I agree, we should list all schools and use qualifiers for dates (see Q76). We may also use a qualifier to state the degree (if any) the person earned at each school. Mushroom (talk) 16:54, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Good idea --McSearch (talk) 16:56, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Seems reasonable. Silver hr (talk) 23:01, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
I prefer to have a statement for each course of study taken with the alma mater, year etc. in the qualifiers (see my comment above). If we include a qualifier for the grade achieved then this can be used to note if the subject failed (or 'did not complete' - this is a BLP after all) the course. See example above. Filceolaire (talk) 06:58, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Titel in Deutsch[edit]

Wäre es nicht sinnvoller, den Titel (in Deutsch) von Alma Mater in Besuchte Universität zu ändern damit es jeder versteht? Oma-Prinzip und so :-) --McSearch (talk) 19:08, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Stimme zu. --Pasleim (talk) 20:10, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
+1. OMA. "besuchte Universität" scheint auch gut getroffen für die Bezeichung. "Alma mater" ist in Ordnung für den Alternativnamen. Ziko (talk) 11:33, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Eine Umbenennung zu "besuchte Universität" ist nicht mehr möglich, da diese Eigenschaft inzwischen auch für besuchte Schulen verwendet wird. Aber mögliche Bezeichnungen könnten sein: "besuchte Bildungseinrichtung" oder "besuchte Bildungsinstitution". --Pasleim (talk) 13:19, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Gute Idee. Das muss man tatsächlich erstmal wissen... Z. (talk) 20:00, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Titolo in italiano[edit]

Alma mater non ha senso come titolo in italiano, ancor di più perché è comunemente riferito ad un' università quando invece magari il soggetto ha frequentato le professionali Rippitippi (talk) 19:21, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Ho originariamente annullato la tua modifica poiché non ho trovato alcuna discussione in cui si era deciso di modificare la dicitura Alma mater. Dal momento che è una proprietà molto utilizzata credo sia preferibile parlarne prima al Bar.
Comunque al momento va bene così, ma se qualcun altro avrà obiezioni bisognerà discuterne con la comunità italofona. — TintoMeches, 20:11, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Default label[edit]

Would it be worthwhile switching the default English label for this to "educated at", rather than "alma mater"? AM is a relatively complex term, which may not be clear to second-language readers; "educated at" is (hopefully) much clearer in most cases.

In addition, it's clear from the discussions above that "alma mater" has a relatively detailed set of implications (higher education, successful completion of course, etc) which can be avoided with "educated at". Andrew Gray (talk) 22:10, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

An overwhelming silence here, but I'm going to be bold and change it... Andrew Gray (talk) 22:38, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
Just wanted to chime in to say I noticed the change and agree with it. Sweet kate (talk) 16:38, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Scope of this Property[edit]

This property is intended to give information about the tertiary education of a person (i.e. at which university/college/Fachhochschule etc. a person studied). However, the (English) alias school attended seems to indicate that this property can (and should) also be used to refer to a person's primary and secondary education. There doesn't seem to be a consensus about which type of education this property refers to. I guess this confusion originates from this property's former name(s) and according translations. In German, for example, it is still called "Alma mater" (and hence is only used for tertiary education by German WD editors).

I propose that we use this property for all the types of education mentioned above, without making anyone mandatory:

  • primary education referring to the elementary school(s) a person visited (or private tutoring, etc.). In my opinion this is useless information in most instances, but I'm open to different views.
  • secondary education' referring to higher education at a high school, Gymnasium, Realschule, Ritterakademie etc. This information is often given in biographies and is of some importance, as many people (at least many who are eligible for a Wikipedia articly ;) choose their career according to what impressions they got in high school.
  • tertiary education as per above.

Comments? Questions? Suggestions? All welcome! Jonathan Groß (talk) 11:03, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Ithink it should be limited to tertiary education. Thats the only way to focus on realy important things.--Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 11:35, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
+1. We should propose a separate property for primary and secondary education. Otherwise the use in the infoboxes would get complicated. en:Template:Infobox person makes a distinction between "education" and "alma_mater". --Kolja21 (talk) 13:14, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Shouldn't we then propose two new properties, one for primary and one for secondary school education? Or is that overcomplicating things? Jonathan Groß (talk) 13:24, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
As the definition of tertiary education can vary from country to country I think we souldn't split up this property and allow all types of eduction. --Pasleim (talk) 18:53, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
You're right, there are differences between countries. But every country makes a distinction between school education and university education. Jonathan Groß (talk) 10:43, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
I don't think this property should be split and should include all types of education institutions. The separation of tertiary and other types of education can be done by querying for the instance of (P31) of the value of this property. If the value is a subclass of higher education institution (Q38723), then we would know that the school referred to is a tertiary education institution. —Wylve (talk) 18:31, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
This property should be used for all forms of education. If we want to identify universities specifically, then some kind of filtering on the value would be appropriate. I agree with Pasleim that trying to have a single hard-and-fast definition for all countries and all times won't work. Andrew Gray (talk) 19:53, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Competition with academic degree (P512)[edit]

academic degree (P512)'s talk page suggests that is should be used as a property with educated at (P69) as qualifier, while educated at (P69) says that this should be the property and academic degree (P512) its qualifier. I think we need to remove the contradiction of the two talk pages and unify real use. Please comment on P512's talk page. Thank you. --Blahma (talk) 09:33, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Specify faculty of the university or not?[edit]

Articles on alumnis at cs.wiki often specify which faculty the person graduated from. Isit desirable to add as a value of this property the exact faculty? Or should this property contain only the name of the university that contains the faculty? --Wesalius (talk) 07:34, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Adding some non-institutional exceptions[edit]

I've been thinking today about whether we should use P69 for "other kinds of education", while preparing to import a few thousand statements from the History of Parliament ID (P1614) items (who are mostly Eton and Oxford...). There are a few things which don't count as an institution but which do accurately describe someone's education:

  • Homeschooling (Q83602) - educated at home by family members (historically very common, and still occurs today)
  • privately tutored [no obvious item yet, perhaps In-home tutoring (Q656823)] - educated at home or while boarding with hired teachers. Historically, this was common among the upper classes, especially for women - see for example Elizabeth II (Q9682) for a prominent recent example. Lots of these in the P1614 records. This would link with student of (P1066) if the tutor was themselves notable.
  • apprenticeship (Q6869278) - received vocational or professional training under a master (historically common, often replaced secondary or even primary education; also note articled clerk (Q4800911) for a special case)
  • Grand Tour (Q6682302) - upper-class cultural/educational experience, ~1660-1850, involving trailing around Europe for a year or two with a tutor

None of these are an "institution", but it would seem reasonable to add them as special cases of P69 - they are all, historically, very well-defined ways people were educated. Thoughts? Andrew Gray (talk) 17:55, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

In general I agree with this proposal. The biggest problem I see with adding these special cases is that educated at (P69) has location-specificity. People are educated at a specific place -- actually a position on the globe -- that we get from an educational institution's properties. Andrew's proposed allowed values do not have this characteristic. However, educated at (P69) also denotes a manner of education, since we know that particular educational institutions embody (for instance) a liberal arts education or technical painting training or a professional law education. Andrew's proposed values do have this characteristic, which is why I agree with his proposals. The only sticking point is that the current English label for educated at (P69) is 'educated at', which foregrounds the location-specific interpretation. I wonder if there's another label that would be truer to both interpretations. Runner1928 (talk) 21:33, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Not quite everything here is geographical - we'd include people who'd studied under distance learning programs, via Open University (Q2413375), etc - but, yes, I agree that it's predominantly implying a location. An alternate label for the property is simply "educated", which has the full nuance - "educated at" is probably preferable as the main label, though, because it's still grammatically correct in 99% of cases. Andrew Gray (talk) 22:01, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Sounds reasonable.
    --- Jura 17:48, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Spanish label, alma mater?[edit]

@Andreasmperu: ¿Por qué es más descriptivo "alma mater" que "estudió en" como nombre para una propiedad que se usa para "las instituciones educativas en las que estudió en una persona"? ¿Puedes ofrecer una explicación? Al menos en mi español, no sé en otros, la expresión alma mater es un término (pelín pedantillo) para referirse, de forma general, a la principal universidad donde estudió uno. Creo que nunca he leído que el alma máter de alguien es la Escuela de Educación Primaria Los Caracoles. O que el alma mater de una persona es tal universidad porque empezó una carrera allí, estuvo un año y la dejó. Rara vez he oído de alguien que tenga dos almas máter. Y educated at (P69) cubre cualquier posibilidad de estas (creo). Según la RAE, que tampoco es la panacea, haría referencia solo a universidades, de una forma bastante poco concreta, eso . Strakhov (talk) 08:08, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Alma mater[edit]

El término alma mater estuvo recogido con acento (alma máter) en 2005, pero se realizó un cambio posterior para escribirlo sin acento, en cursiva y como locución latina, por lo que no se aplica bajo la Ortografía actual el uso con acento alma máter. Queda recogido en la actual versión del DRAE: http://dle.rae.es/?id=1x85zCG Hay que escribirlo por tanto alma mater --Melkart4k (talk) 11:54, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

@Melkart4k: Alma máter también según la Nueva ortografía: «los préstamos del latín solo se escribirán en letra redonda y con sometimiento a las reglas de acentuación gráfica del español cuando estén completamente adaptados a nuestro sistema ortográfico» Andreasm háblame / just talk to me 02:08, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
@talk:Andreasmperu: La acentuación de las locuciones latinas se ha abandonado en la Ortografía más reciente, por lo que algo de 2010 ya no es válido. http://www.fundeu.es/recomendacion/la-alma-mater-no-el-alma-mater-1563/
Insisto en que es "alma mater", en minúscula, sin tilde y en cursiva, por ser una locución latina.
De hecho, esa es la más reciente, pero te has saltado al leer ese documento que enlazas lo más importante de la Ortografía y que hace referencia a las locuciones latinas:
@Andreasmperu:"Según se establece en la nueva edición de la ortografía, las locuciones latinas (expresiones pluriverbales fijas en latín que se utilizan en todas las lenguas de cultura occidentales, incluido el español, con un sentido más o menos cercano al significado literal latino) deben recibir el mismo tratamiento ortográfico que las provenientes de cualquier otra lengua. Por lo tanto, deben escribirse, de acuerdo con su carácter de expresiones foráneas, en cursiva (o entre comillas) y sin acentos gráficos, ya que estos no existen en la escritura latina"
@Andreasmperu: No sé qué más necesitas para ver que "alma máter" está mal escrito y es una falta de ortografía. No se tilda, y lo pone bien clarito en la Ortografía: las locuciones latinas no se tildan.
El título ya lo indica: Los latinismos crudos no adaptados deben escribirse en cursiva "en cursiva (o entre comillas) y sin acentos gráficos". Dos condiciones necesarias para señalar su carácter extranjero. Aquí solo se pueden usar letras redondas. Andreasm háblame / just talk to me 00:55, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
@Andreasmperu: un "latinismo crudo" es una sola palabra. Las locuciones latinas se componen de dos o más palabras. Creo que en realidad no sabes lo que significaba "locución latina", pero ya queda explicado. Por tanto, se aplica lo siguiente de la Ortografía de la ASALE: "Según se establece en la nueva edición de la ortografía, las locuciones latinas (expresiones pluriverbales fijas en latín que se utilizan en todas las lenguas de cultura occidentales, incluido el español, con un sentido más o menos cercano al significado literal latino) deben recibir el mismo tratamiento ortográfico que las provenientes de cualquier otra lengua. Por lo tanto, deben escribirse, de acuerdo con su carácter de expresiones foráneas, en cursiva (o entre comillas) y sin acentos gráficos, ya que estos no existen en la escritura latina"
@Melkart4k: (sorry responding in English) how do you propose to display the label in italics? Wiki-markup is not allowed in wikidata labels and descriptions. If it's not really a Spanish term then perhaps it should not be the label used for this property in Spanish. From what I can see on the internet, both forms (with and without the accent on "mater") are regularly used, so both should be there as aliases at least. But I'd suggest picking something different for the main label. ArthurPSmith (talk) 14:53, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
@ArthurPSmith: The Spanish ortography is regulated by the ASALE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Spanish_Language_Academies , that it's formed by the Spanish language academies of all the spanish-speaking countries. The new Ortography published in 2010 estipulated that the latin phrases (two or more words taken from latin) are not allowed to have diacritics, and that they should be written, whenever possible, in italics or with quotation marks. If you can not write in italics or dont have the quotation marks, it is ok. What it is not valid is to put the diacritic in "máter", so it is considered at this moment a misspelling. Previously to 2010 it was mostly valid to write "alma máter" taken as some kind of Spanish adaptation of the word "máter", but the change was due to the fact that, for example, "alma" does not mean "soul" in Latin but "nourishing", so the meaning of the latin phrases were diluted in a bad adaptation with diacritics that some people were doing. So, it was decided that latin phrases are to be written without diacritics (Latin does not have them), and in italics or quotation marks whenever possible. All the words in other languages should be written that way in Spanish texts, although most people that are not journalists, writers, scientits or other people who write regularly, do not use them.
This does not apply to latin words (only one word) that have been adapted (¿most of the Spanish language?), like "premium" that is written "prémium" (with diacritics, according to the Ortography), "quorum" that is "cuórum", etc.
What I propose is to write it "alma mater" as long as "alma máter" is a misspelling, and it is ok if there are no italics nor quotation marks. Most people do not use them anyway as I said, and most people will know that it's a Latin phrase anyway.
Spanish ortography changes every few years (not too often, every 10 years or so?), and I understand that most people will use the old Ortography rules while they get used to the new rules through reading newspapers, books, etc. (many old people will write words like "fé" instead of "fe" or "dió" instead of "dio", as that was a change introduced in the ortography 40 years ago, but it is very rare that people below 60 years old write the misspell). But those that know the correct rules of the most modern ortography try to keep it as should be (journalists, writers, scientists on their papers, etc.).
@ArthurPSmith: Perhaps I have focused on the discussion of "alma mater"/"alma máter". The translation of "Educated at" is "Estudió en". "Alma mater" is mostly used to refer a single University (the most important one that person has attended), but in most cases the "Educated at" entry reflects all the institutions the characters has studied at. So the best translation is Estudió en, to reflect the fact that it has attended one or more schools.
estudió en sounds like a good resolution then. ArthurPSmith (talk) 15:58, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

German Label Alma mater[edit]

Is this tag limited to Universities? In german alma mater is not exclusively used for university but for anyone who hasn't been to one, it sounds like it. If it is not limited to universities I propose 'Bildungseinrichtung' or something similar. That would be understandable for a broader range of users. 91.221.59.27 07:22, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

This is not limited to universities; we changed "alma mater" in English to "educated at" for just that reason :-). A more general term for education sounds good. Andrew Gray (talk) 12:55, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Same thing with Spanish translation, it should not be "alma mater" but "Estudió en". It is more generic. --Melkart4k (talk) 17:33, 22 September 2017 (UTC)