Property talk:P1448

From Wikidata
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Documentation

official name
official name of the subject in its official language(s)
Descriptionthe name of the item
Representsofficial name (Q11938905)
Data typeMonolingual text
Template parametername "Official name" or similar in all infoboxes
Domainall items (note: this should be moved to the property statements)
Allowed valuesname of place in the original language of that region (note: this should be moved to the property statements)
ExampleGermany (Q183)Bundesrepublik Deutschland
Pirelli Tower (Q920809)Grattacielo Pirelli
Rome (Q220)Roma
Tracking: sameno label (Q32085223)
Tracking: usageCategory:Pages using Wikidata property P1448 (Q20990034)
Tracking: local yes, WD noCategory:Official name not in Wikidata, but available on Wikipedia (Q27673378)
See alsonative label (P1705)
Lists
Proposal discussionProperty proposal/Archive/24#P1448
Current uses883,539
[create] Create a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here
Qualifiers “start time (P580), end time (P582), name in kana (P1814), transliteration (P2440), Revised Hepburn romanization (P2125), McCune-Reischauer romanization (P1942), Revised Romanization (P2001), pinyin transliteration (P1721), identity of subject in context (P4649), object has role (P3831), named after (P138): this property should be used only with the listed qualifiers. (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1448#Allowed qualifiers, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
This property is being used by:

Please notify projects that use this property before big changes (renaming, deletion, merge with another property, etc.)

Domain and allowed values[edit]

  • should the domain for this property exclude person (Q215627) and its subclasses?
  • should allowed vales be changed to "name of place or organization in its original language"

- PKM (talk) 20:56, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Official name vs valid written forms of the names[edit]

It seems like official names comes in at least two forms. Either names are given by some authority, or an authority accept or rejects written forms of provided names. Perhaps we should have two qualifiers; given by and validated by. Given by would be a link to the authority that gave the subject its name, while validated by would be the authority that validated the name. Jeblad (talk) 10:03, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

P1448: official name[edit]

Moving from Wikidata:Project chat/Archive/2017/04#P1448: official name

Hi! Regarding official name (P1448), while according to the description it is meant to contain the "official name of the subject in its official language(s)" and my feeling is that this is indeed the original purpose, from time to time I find here and there the property filled with the official name transcribed in non official languages. For example I am sure that Russian and Georgian are not official languages used in New York City (Q60). Discussing on the use of this property for infoboxes we realized that this would be a problem when we want only the "official name of the subject in its official language(s)". So I am asking if the description and the intended purpose of the property is correct. Additionaly it would be a good idea for maintenance to check for such problems (easy, most countries have only one or two official languages). -Geraki (talk) 19:40, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Can anyone answer that? It's a serious problem. See Germany (Q183). It has 15 values in this property. And only the first one (with preferred rank) is the real official language. If we want to write all possible language and just to have the official as preferred, we must write it down. Xaris333 (talk) 14:30, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
More examples of misuse in Luhansk Oblast (Q171965), Luhansk (Q134279) - some improper Belarusian translations were added.
As per property's description (official name of the subject in its official language(s)) and per the Allowed values above in #Documentation (name of place in the original language of that region), there shouldn't be added translated/transliterated variants of official names into this property to items. If this is really needed, there may be created a new property ~"In other languages" to be used as qualifier for P1448. --XXN, 15:02, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
@Geraki, Xaris333, XXN: I understand the need not to multiplied the values without necessity, but something bothers me a lot: how do you know what is the official language(s) of the subject? most subject doesn't have an obvious official language, and sometimes they don't have an official language at all. New York City (Q60) is a good example since AFAIK, there is no official language there (not in New York City (Q60), nor in New York (Q1384) ; and United States of America (Q30) is well known for not having an official language, by the way is strange as de facto (Q712144) is kind of the opposite of official…). And what about things that are not places (this property is mostly use for places but not only, and what about places not on Earth (Q2) like Olympus Mons (Q520)?).
Right now, on 802 822 distinct items using official name (P1448), only 2029 (= 0,25% !!!) have a official language (P37).
Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 09:33, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
@VIGNERON: Indeed, in fact it is not exactly only in the official language but in the way it is written in official documents of the entity that administers the settlement (or institution). In the New York example, the official name is the one that is used by the New York City Council (Q645195). This includes also places where there is an official language but again we need the official name, and not just the common name in the official language (f.e. for France (Q142) the official name is "République française", not just "France".
For a companies and other institutions the official name is the one that was used to register and is used in legal documents. For example the official name of Google is "Google Inc." and the official name of Royal Society (Q123885) is "The President, Council and Fellows of the Royal Society of London for Improving Natural Knowledge"[1].
And yes, some things do not have an official name.
-Geraki (talk) 11:43, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
Sorry Geraki but I think you missed my point (or I missed yours, anyhow I still don't have my answer). My problem is not with the « its official language(s) » part (on that, I totally agree with you) but with the « in its official language(s) » part. How could we know in what is « its official language(s) ». Ad absurdum, if I found an obscure name in official papers of the New York City Council (Q645195) in old archives (which is unlikely but not implausible), could I add this name? An other example with Olympus Mons (Q520), I know who create the name, when, how, why and even when and who approved it (see Q520#P1448), but how do I know for sure what language this is in? (no one really administers Mars). And this is a case where I know a bit the matter but how to do when in the first place, you don't know anything about the situation. Cherry on the cake: what about official names in unofficial language(s) (like national, minority, de facto, etc languages). Ideally, I would like some clear and explicit guideline (which « official name of the subject in its official language(s) » is not at all, not for me at least). Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 12:08, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Adding to official name (P1448) all translated versions of the official name in all languages (over 200) it's not really a necessary way, and in fact by acting so there will just be duplicated values from labels and aliases and will transform items in some kind of dictionaries. Some settlements like Dnipro (Q48256) have changed their time by 4-5 times in their history - it will be a chaos to add and maintain ~250x5 (over 1000 entries in this statement) with ~2-3 qualifiers each! Also this will cause some additional issues: e.g. at the moment the item for Germany (Q183) has 1,187,177 bytes, and after such additions this item will highly increase in size and may become difficult to view/read (for anyone) or even inaccessible from weak devices. We should preserve some space for values of demonym (P1549) (which also will increase item's sizes). XXN, 10:37, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

No constraint?[edit]

Right now, there is no constraint indicated for this property, but some constraints would be obvious. Very quickly, I can at least think of:

Can I add this constraint?

Could you think to other constraints? (for instance, should we limit to places?)

Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 09:33, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Multilingual official name[edit]

I added "Maó-Mahón" as official name of Mahón (Q49550) using the special language code mul. It is not the "name in the official languages" which would be "Maó" in Catalan and "Mahón" in Spanish, but this multilingual version has been declared official. I wonder how this usage can be reflected in the property description.--Ssola (talk) 15:04, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Well, technically the current description "official name of the subject in its official language(s)" is fine.--Ssola (talk) 15:14, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
The only other such use according to Wikidata:Database_reports/monolingual_text/multiple_languages is in Biel/Bienne (Q1034).--Ssola (talk) 15:39, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Can it be used for organizations?[edit]

Can it be used for organizations that changed their names over the years (qualifying it with start time (P580) and end time (P582)) or there is a more appropriate property?--Malore (talk) 09:13, 6 April 2018 (UTC)