Property talk:P184

Documentation

doctoral advisor
person who supervised the doctorate or PhD thesis of the subject

Description Person who supervised the doctorate thesis of the subject. Inverse of doctoral student (P185).

Represents doctoral advisor (Q363802)

Data type Item

Template parameter |doctoral_advisor= in en:Template:Infobox scientist

Domain

According to this template: persons

According to statements in the property:
human (Q5) or fictional human (Q15632617)

When possible, data should only be stored as statements

Allowed values human (Q5) (note: this should be moved to the property statements)

Example Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz (Q9047) → Christiaan Huygens (Q39599)
Ernest Rutherford (Q9123) → J. J. Thomson (Q47285)
Alan Turing (Q7251) → Alonzo Church (Q92741)

Tracking: usage Category:Pages using Wikidata property P184 (Q23909082)

See also student of (P1066), reviewed by (P4032), opponent during disputation (P3323), supervised by (P7604)

Lists

Proposal discussion Proposal discussion

Current uses

Total	368,838
Main statement	362,267	98.2% of uses
Qualifier	6,540	1.8% of uses
Reference	31	<0.1% of uses

Search for values

[create Create a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here]

Type “human (Q5), fictional human (Q15632617)”: item must contain property “instance of (P31)” with classes “human (Q5), fictional human (Q15632617)” or their subclasses (defined using subclass of (P279)). (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P184#Type Q5, Q15632617, SPARQL

Value type “human (Q5), fictional human (Q15632617)”: This property should use items as value that contain property “instance of (P31)”. On these, the value for instance of (P31) should be an item that uses subclass of (P279) with value human (Q5), fictional human (Q15632617) (or a subclass thereof). (Help)

List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P184#Value type Q5, Q15632617, hourly updated report, SPARQL

Contemporaries:
if [item A] has this property (doctoral advisor (P184)) linked to [item B],
then [item A] and [item B] have to coincide or coexist at some point of history. (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P184#Contemporary, SPARQL

Inverse property of “doctoral student (P185)”:
if [item A] has this property (doctoral advisor (P184)) linked to [item B],
then [item B] should also have property “doctoral student (P185)” linked to [item A]. (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P184#inverse, SPARQL

Item “educated at (P69)”: Items with this property should also have “educated at (P69)”. (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P184#Item P69, search, SPARQL

Allowed entity types are Wikibase item (Q29934200): the property may only be used on a certain entity type (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P184#Entity types

Scope is as main value (Q54828448), as qualifier (Q54828449), as reference (Q54828450): the property must be used by specified way only (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P184#Scope, SPARQL

This property is being used by:

Please notify projects that use this property before big changes (renaming, deletion, merge with another property, etc.)

Second advisor[edit]

Which qualifier do we use to indicate who is the first/second advisor? --Jobu0101 (talk) 22:28, 7 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Zolo, Danrok: --Jobu0101 (talk) 06:50, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jobu0101: P794 (P794) I guess. --Zolo (talk) 14:12, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Zolo: Like I just did it here? --Jobu0101 (talk) 14:30, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jobu0101: actually, by "first" and "second" advisor do you mean that he had one main advisor and a secondary one, or that he changed advisor. To indicate that that the advisor changed, it may be better to use follows (P155) / followed by (P156). If that means main vs secondary advisor, I think it should be as you did, but we a more explicit label or description on first doctoral advisor (Q26236695). -Zolo (talk) 14:36, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Zolo: My source is [1]. I'm not sure if the source distinguishes the two cases you listed. Once we agree on how we do it it's clear that first doctoral advisor (Q26236695) and second doctoral advisor (Q26236691) have to be expanded. --Jobu0101 (talk) 14:42, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nécessité d'une thèse ?[edit]

@Zolo: Hello, ton avis stp. La soutenance effective d'une thèse est-elle une condition nécessaire de la propriété ? Autrement dit s'agit-il du directeur d'une thèse effectivement soutenue ou du directeur d'un travail doctoral en vue d'une thèse, y compris s'il est notoire que ce travail n'a pas débouché sur la thèse entreprise sous la direction de cette personne ? Cordialement, Racconish (talk) 12:57, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Je dirais que: Dès que le projet est commencé, vous pouvez utiliser le P184. Il n'a pas à être soumis. — Finn Årup Nielsen (fnielsen) (talk) 17:26, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Quid s'il est résilié (cancelled) ? Cheers, Racconish (talk) 17:37, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Racconish : j'aurais dit d'une "thèse effectivement soutenue" : la soutenance venant en quelque sorte "graver dans le marbre" la direction de thèse, qui demeure la vie du chercheur durant ; de la part de ceux qui, au contraire, ont abandonné avant, je n'ai jamais entendu que "untel A ETE mon directeur de thèse", ce qui montre que la donnée n'a plus de validité. Je ne sais pas si je suis clair...

Mais d'autres soutiennent le contraire ; je suis prêt à entendre les arguments en ce sens.

Nomen ad hoc (talk) 08:56, 26 June 2019 (UTC).[reply]

Concerned about the application.[edit]

I am a bit concerned about the application of this property. It seems that people are using academictree.org as a source, see, e.g., [2] [3]. But I believe that academic tree has a much broader definition of academic connection than "doctoral advisor". Albert A. Michelson seems to have been educated in USA, while his P184's is listed as being the doctoral student of Helmholtz and a French physisist called Alfred Cornu. I find it hard to believe that he had doctoral advisors in two countries, while it might very well be that he worked as some kind of postdoc with Helmholtz and Cornu. But the latter doesn't make them doctoral advisors. I have the suspicious that such problematic annotation might be widespread with P184. Perhaps student of (P1066) better reflect academictree.org, neurotree.org and similar listings? — Finn Årup Nielsen (fnielsen) (talk) 17:38, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't student of (P1066) more appropriate for arts ? Racconish (talk) 18:16, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I do not see that student of (P1066) should be restricted to the arts. The current examples lists Albert Einstein (Q937) as student of (P1066) Heinrich Friedrich Weber (Q116635). — Finn Årup Nielsen (fnielsen) (talk) 21:21, 16 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There are numerous examples, e.g., Manuel Bryennios (Q12880655) born 1275. Did they really have the concept of doctoral thesis at that point? @Arachn0:. There is an assymmetry as student (P802) is used in the other direction. — Finn Årup Nielsen (fnielsen) (talk) 21:26, 16 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

people with more than one thesis in different university[edit]

The property academic thesis (P1026) is defined as "must be a qualifier" [of a educated at (P69)]. It seems reasonable, because people do a thesis (Q1266946) to get a academic degree (P512) in a certain educated at (P69). However, the property doctoral advisor (P184) (this where we are) is defined as "When possible, data should only be stored as statements" and has human (Q5) as a domain, so usually it appears as an statements of the "doctored person" item with the name of the "doctoral advisor (Q363802)" as a value. In my opinion, the doctoral advisor (P184) could be a characteristic of the "doctored person" ONLY when he/she has just one thesis (Q1266946). However, in a correct way, it should be a property (characteristic) of one specific thesis together with author (P50), publication date (P577) or URL (P2699) and is done for an specific educated at (P69).

In the present ontology (Q324254), how should write the second thesis of a person, in a different university and with different doctoral advisor (P184)?. Thanks Amadalvarez (talk) 09:29, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Zolo, Danrok: Amadalvarez (talk) 22:26, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense to me to make doctoral advisor (P184) a qualifier of educated at (P69) rather than human (Q5), in line with thesis (Q1266946). --D Wells (talk) 14:52, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Property on the actual thesis item[edit]

Hi! This property is meant to be person to person. What would then be the right way (if any) to mark the supervisor on a specific thesis item?--Reosarevok (talk) 08:32, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Reosarevok: It seems that this is not possible. You probably have to link the thesis indirectly, via its author, who will then have the desired doctoral advisor (P184) and academic thesis (P1026) qualifiers. Such as in Louis Dunn (Q73231). Vojtěch Dostál (talk) 14:16, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

reviewed by (P4032) ? --- Jura 16:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

value requires academic degree (P512)[edit]

Are there cases where this shouldn't be a requirement? It may mean that the information should only be added with a qualifier in educated at (P69).

There seems to have been some back and forth over the constraint. @GZWDer, Ferran Mir, Midleading, Dcflyer: --- Jura 18:23, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Jura1: It is a tricky case as 1. there are people with some unusual degree such as thèse de troisième cycle (MGP even misspells "troisième" as "troiième"); 2. even for most common ones like Ph.D. the term is inconsistent in Wikidata (Doctor (Q4618975)/doctorate (Q849697)/Doctor of Philosophy (Q752297)) and the actual spelling may varies between school. I know some French schools issue two diplomas to one person, one in French and one in English.--GZWDer (talk) 18:36, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think academic degree (P512) can be required without a specific item as value. --- Jura 18:38, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I don't think anyone without a degree can supervise the doctorate thesis. Even if there is one, we can still add academic degree (P512) with novalue. The constraint should be added. --Midleading (talk) 00:23, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ok then, I readded it. --- Jura 09:17, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

item requires academic degree (P512)[edit]

Are there cases where this isn't a useful suggestion constraint? This even if we could have items for people that didn't actually get a degree and the doctoral advisor (P184) can still be referenced.

@GZWDer, Ferran Mir, Midleading, Dcflyer: --- Jura 18:23, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it may exists cases of students who did not have reached de doctorate. But if we put the P512 as a constraint, there are thousands of P184 in WD that will show a warning because P512 is not informed. It's crazy: some exceptions spoil thousands of cases.--Ferran Mir (talk) 18:43, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The question is

(1) if we have thousands of items about doctoral students that didn't get a degree (which raises the question why they are notable)
(2) or if they haven't gotten the degree yet
(3) or if we just haven't added the information yet.

I don't think constraint violations for the later cases are much of an issue. --- Jura 18:49, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

MGP only covers students with a degree, but this does not mean all students will have one.--GZWDer (talk) 18:56, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do you really think that we have thousands of items about doctoral students that didn't get a degree. May be we have a lot of chemists that are not chemists!!--Ferran Mir (talk) 19:02, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If it's mostly (3), I think the constraint should be readded. --- Jura 19:05, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely desagree in any case.--Ferran Mir (talk) 19:24, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why wouldn't it be an improvement to the item to add P512? suggestion constraint (Q62026391) is precisely for that. --- Jura 19:34, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone without even a bachelor's degree (Q163727) degree can work on a doctorate thesis. Even if there is one, we can still add academic degree (P512) with novalue. The constraint should be added. --Midleading (talk) 00:23, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. Somehow I thought we'd have mostly (3), but it's clear that even (1) and (2) should have some value. --- Jura 09:19, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

French label[edit]

Following this request for comments, the French label now includes the male and the female form. PAC2 (talk) 04:32, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]