Property talk:P180

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Documentation

depicts
depicted entity (see also P921: subject heading)
Description Event(s) (historical or mythological) depicted on work (book, painting, opera, etc). Rather use main subject (P921) for the main subject.
Data type Item
Domain
According to this template: creative works - work (Q386724)
According to statements in the property:
work (Q386724) and image (Q478798)
When possible, data should only be stored as statements
Allowed values any item (note: this should be moved to the property statements)
Example
According to statements in the property:
The Balcony (Q775407)Berthe Morisot (Q105320)
The Last Supper (Q128910)Jesus Christ (Q302)
The Bull (Q2917717)frog (Q3116510)
When possible, data should only be stored as statements
Tracking: same no label (Q42533350)
Tracking: usage Category:Pages using Wikidata property P180 (Q20990009)
See also main subject (P921), relative position within image (P2677), shown with features (P1354), characters (P674)
Lists
Proposal discussion Property proposal/Archive/2#P180
Current uses 61,666
[create] Create a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here
Type “work (Q386724), image (Q478798): element must contain property “instance of (P31)” with classes “work (Q386724), image (Q478798)” or their subclasses (defined using subclass of (P279)).
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P180#Type Q386724, Q478798, SPARQL
Qualifiers “relative position within image (P2677), shown with features (P1354), color (P462), applies to part (P518), quantity (P1114), sourcing circumstances (P1480): this property should be used only with the listed qualifiers.
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P180#Allowed qualifiers, SPARQL


Ambiguous[edit]

Please see also main subject (P921). As far as I understand P180 is only for works of art. --Kolja21 (talk) 14:12, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

This property was originally intended for all kinds of works ("book, painting, opera, etc"). I think they should be merged. Apart that it makes nicer labels, I cannot see any point ih having two properties - and it makes it harder to grasp the general structure --Zolo (talk) 15:24, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
The properties are our language. If we reduce this language to much, we can't talk about motifs (art), themes, and genres. It would be like eliminating the taxonomic ranks. We should try to improve the accordance of the translations. --Kolja21 (talk) 04:31, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Specialized properties are useful when they add some information. It seems to be the case for Léonore ID (P640) and characters (P674). But I do not see what additinal information we get from differentiating between p180 and p921. They both have a rather generic meaning. Necessarily, if something is a text, it will depict things with words, and if something is a painting, it will depict things with paint. But we do not really need two properties for that.
A potential difference is that p921 means "main" topic while p180 does not specificy "main". But I do not think that makes a valid case for keeping two properties. If we were to go this way, we should also use p921 for visual works, and that would become really complex.
Echo cc Micru, user:GZWDer. --Zolo (talk) 14:11, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
I know what you mean, but merging properties is quite tricky. Right now, at least in some languages, P180 is about a no label (Q2382800) (art and literature) while P921 is an index term (Q1128340) (subject heading). Of course the labels and translations of P180, P921, Q2382800, and Q2382800 vary and still being changed. We would also need to check all items that are linked to these properties. --Kolja21 (talk) 19:01, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Regardless of what was the original intention of this property I would recommend to use both properties as follows:

  • depicts (p180): it is sourced directly 1:1 from an image/artwork. If there is a dog in the picture, it depicts a dog. Maybe a better name would be "depicted in picture" (or motif)
  • main topic/subject heading (p921): it is inferred from the work and sourced by an organization (LoC, and others).

Both properties can coexist if the difference is made quite clear.--Micru (talk) 19:13, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

+1. If you see a young woman on a picture, the motif is "girl". The theme or the subject can be something else. For example: wealth, class differences, melancholy etc. --Kolja21 (talk) 19:52, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
This seems to be a commonly made distrinction, so I can't really oppose it, but I can't say I am very clear about it either. It seems to essentially boil down to abstract versus concrete, and in that case, we get back to the initial issue that it does not really add information. And in the case of a literary description, should we use "depicts" or "main subject" ? The Dublin core also seems to have only one "subject" property ([1]).
I should probably mention that some well-regarded ontology (can't remember which, sorry), makes the distinction between subject that are obvious from an image (like this a a man) and those that require background knowledge (like this is Cicero). I have to say I find that a bit puzzling, as the cutoff seems rather arbitrary. --Zolo (talk) 08:24, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Later, when we have the list function, it's time to look at the use of these properties again. For literature we also have characters (P674), what is pretty close to subject, depict, motif etc. --Kolja21 (talk) 15:13, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

obituary →‎ decedent[edit]

It seems to me that a newspaper obituary depicts its (human (Q5)) decedent in precisely the same way a photograph would, so I'm using this property. --Struthious Bandersnatch (talk) 19:14, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

That depends on how you define a photograph. A photograph can be an artistic work or a kind of documentation. Generally speaking a photograph is closer to a painting than to a written work. For non-fiction works, including obituaries, imho main subject (P921) is more accurate. --Kolja21 (talk) 13:55, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

changing/permitting constraint[edit]

changing/permitting constraint for using motif/icon class theme--Oursana (talk) 17:38, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I am afraid your post might not be clear to everybody. It seems to be connected to this post. We should indeed consider to allow some more values for instance of (P31) from the currently used but not allowed values listed by Wikidata:Database reports/Constraint violations/P180#Types statistics. Somebody has to figure out the highest classes to allow! A problem might be that Template:Constraint:Type does not permit to allow several classes? --Marsupium (talk) 22:01, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Things like: "depicts: Madonna and Child" are currently a bit problematic because we do not really know if the painting is a Madonna and Child or if there is a painting of Madonna and Child depicted on it. Beside if we want to say that Mary is wearing a blue robe using qualfiers, we need to have "depict: Madonna and Child" + "depict: Mary with a blue robe", so that there appears to be to Mary. I would probably support a "theme" property or something like that to solve this but in the meanwhile I would say that things like "depict: Happiness" ar ok, so that it may not really solve type-inconsistency issues. --Zolo (talk) 07:14, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Which domain?[edit]

The domain (or type constraint (Q21503250)) of shown with features (P1354) is image (Q478798), of depicts (P180) it is work (Q386724), I think they should have the same. For now, I've simply added image (Q478798). Which one or both? You may also take a look at the items currently fallen through the constraint. Thank you, --Marsupium (talk) 21:46, 5 October 2017 (UTC), Marsupium (talk) 21:58, 5 October 2017 (UTC)