Wikidata:Property proposal/calligrapher

calligrapher

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

   Done: calligrapher (P6819) (Talk and documentation)

Description	calligrapher, scribe or copist of a work
Represents	calligrapher (Q3303330), scribe (Q916292)
Data type	Item
Template parameter	|Scribe(s)= in en:Template:Infobox manuscript - Template:Infobox manuscript (Q14467483)
Domain	manuscript (Q87167) (document written by hand) and subclasses
Allowed values	person (Q215627), character that may or may not be fictional (Q21070598), fictional character (Q95074)
Example 1	The Constitution of India (Original Calligraphed and Illuminated Version) (Q21177783) → Prem Behari Narain Raizada (Q62023627)
Example 2	United States Declaration of Independence (engrossed copy) (Q19024113) → Timothy Matlack (Q4309931)
Example 3	গণপ্রজাতন্ত্রী বাংলাদেশের সংবিধান (মূল হস্তলিখিত রূপ) → AKM Abdur Rouf (Q19663031)
See also	illustrator (P110)
Subproperty of	creator (P170)?? and significant person (P3342)??

Motivation

The property will help describe calligraphers of work. Bodhisattwa (talk) 18:15, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

•  Support — I am working on the calligraphed version of the Indian constitution in enWS, and not able to add the calligrapher in the WD page of the work. The constitution of Bangladesh also has a calligraphed version. Indian constitution has a Hindi calligraphed version too. This property is needed to deal with such works. Hrishikes (talk) 01:23, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
•  Support David (talk) 07:17, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
•  Support Makes sense to have, by analogy with other properties more specific than creator (P170). Mahir256 (talk) 16:52, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
•  Comment. It would be great if the scope of this would be widened to cover letterer (Q658404). An example would be Asterix and Obelix All at Sea (Q947559) → Michel Janvier (Q2387224). Thierry Caro (talk) 22:03, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
•  Oppose use with qualifier: XXXXXcreator (P170)YYYYYobject has role (P3831)calligrapher (Q3303330)! --Marsupium (talk) 16:07, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
• Question: what's the relation between this and scribe (Q916292)? MartinPoulter (talk) 11:14, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
  • If created this property should cover scribes as well I'd say. --Marsupium (talk) 22:58, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
    • I'm not clear when I'd use one rather than another. If there's a boundary it seems it's very subjective, unless there are definitions we can use. MartinPoulter (talk) 10:02, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
• @MartinPoulter, Marsupium, Thierry Caro, Hrishikes, Jason.nlw:, Just to mention that we have illustrator (P110), so as a calligraphy is a kind of illustration I would propose to use illustrator (P110) with perhaps a qualifier mentioning the calligraphy.

However I would like a new property for the copist, the person who copy the text. And I don't like the solution of creator (P170) because we already created several properties for the different contributors to a book/manuscript (author of foreword (P2679), author of afterword (P2680), illustrator (P110), author (P50), translator (P655)), I would keep the same principle to avoid to follow different ways to define the properties of a book. Snipre (talk) 12:37, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

_{@Bodhisattwa, ديفيد عادل وهبة خليل 2, Mahir256: Snipre (talk) 14:56, 4 April 2019 (UTC)}

I've been making a stupid error so far in this discussion: I was sure we already had a property for scribe/copyist. I should have realised my error when my search returned a Q number but not a P number. So apologies to everyone for my nonsensical remark above. This means that we absolutely do need a property for scribe / copyist / calligrapher, and the easiest way is to accept this property with "scribe" and "copyist" added as English aliases, perhaps with scribe (Q916292) mentioned in the property definition. I would  Support such a property. I think "letterer" is also an acceptable use and alias. I imagine some people might say that "calligrapher" has different connotations from "copyist", but it will be hard to make the distinction in practice: one is more "fancy" or artistic than another, sometimes. This is an important property of a manuscript (Q87167) or a calligraphic work (Q22669850), at least as important as publisher (P123), so deserves its own property. I don't agree that "calligraphy is a kind of illustration". MartinPoulter (talk) 13:58, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

@MartinPoulter: OK so we agree to enlarge the application of this proposal to integrate not only the calligraphy but the manual copy of a text. Do you have a proposition as main label ? Do you know example where we can have a copist and another person as calligrapher ?

@Bodhisattwa: Do you agree to modify the scope of your proposal ? Snipre (talk) 15:06, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

@Snipre:, I am ok if copyist can be included in this property. I don't agree about what @Marsupium:@Snipre: said. Illustration and calligraphy are two different subjects. -- Bodhisattwa (talk) 15:43, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

@Bodhisattwa: I didn't say that and I think it's wrong. Snipre said that. --Marsupium (talk) 16:23, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

@Marsupium:, I am extremely sorry, I have corrected my statement. -- Bodhisattwa (talk) 16:29, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Never mind, no problem at all. --Marsupium (talk) 16:33, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm the only one opposing this property so far, obviously I'm in minority with that and I'm also okay with having a dedicated property for this need. So someone go forward and create it! And what about a combined label "scribe/calligrapher"? NOTE: I've updated the description following the consensus above. --Marsupium (talk) 16:23, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

•  Question Can we make this property subproperty of (P1647)creator (P170)? --Marsupium (talk) 16:23, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I think it has be because they are the creator of the physical object. It should, however, have clear usage instructions and domain constraints. The latter are not stated in the original proposal and I find this omission problematic. Alternatively, it could be subproperty of (P1647)significant person (P3342), which is how colorist (P6338) is modeled.

 Question Can this property be used on the same item as author (P50) when the item created by the scribe/copyist is merely a container for one or more works, which should be represented by separate items to which the authors are linked? If the item is an autograph (Q9026959), is it sufficient to just use author (P50) because it is inherent that they also wrote the document? Simon Cobb (User:Sic19 ; talk page) 20:24, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

@Sic19:

• I think both fit and it can have both subproperty of (P1647)significant person (P3342) and subproperty of (P1647)creator (P170). (The value-type constraint (Q21510865) of significant person (P3342) doesn't allow organizations unlike that of creator (P170).
• To “Can this property be used on the same item as author (P50) when the item created by the scribe/copyist is merely a container for one or more works, which should be represented by separate items to which the authors are linked?”: This question came already up at Wikidata talk:WikiProject Books#Manuscripts but hasn't been answered yet.
• I'd propose to set both <calligrapher> and author (P50) also on instances of autograph (Q9026959) even if it's a bit redundant. Deriving it while querying would be cumbersome and counterintuitive for data consumers.

Cheers, --Marsupium (talk) 18:04, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

•  Support By including Scribe in the scope, the property would be very useful for describing manuscripts, and should, i think, make it easier to clearly differentiate between the scribe, translator, editor of the volume as well as the author(s) of works contained within the volume. Jason.nlw (talk) 12:44, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

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Notified participants of WikiProject property constraints

• The proper usage of this property should be discussed and property constraints agreed before it is created. This property is definitely useful, and probably necessary, but I think it also has potential to be used incorrectly, either on the wrong item type or in combination with incompatible properties. Simon Cobb (User:Sic19 ; talk page) 17:25, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
  • @Bodhisattwa, Hrishikes, ديفيد عادل وهبة خليل 2, Jason.nlw: @Mahir256: Can you complete the "|domain=" in the property proposal above (currently empty)? Supposedly the mentioned Constitution of Bangladesh (Q2995170) wouldn't be in the domain, only an item for a specific exemplar thereof. --- Jura 16:34, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
    • I've filled the |allowed values=. What about manuscript (Q87167) for the domain? (individual copy of a book (Q53731850) isn't necessarily handwritten.) --Marsupium (talk) 18:04, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
      • manuscript (Q87167) seems to make sense to me (ive added it for now). Jason.nlw (talk) 10:23, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

 Support I think the property is ready to be created. Simon Cobb (User:Sic19 ; talk page) 05:05, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

 Question Should the value of this property statement always have a occupation (P106) = calligrapher (Q3303330) or scribe (Q916292) claim? Simon Cobb (User:Sic19 ; talk page) 05:05, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

I would be inclined to say no as i can think of lots of examples where the scribe of a work is actually a poet, historian, genealogist ect, and so it's probably wrong to assume by default that scribe/calligrapher is their occupation. Jason.nlw (talk) 07:24, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

---

@Bodhisattwa, Hrishikes, ديفيد عادل وهبة خليل 2, Mahir256, Jason.nlw, Sic19:  Done --Kolja21 (talk) 02:50, 8 June 2019 (UTC)