Wikidata:Property proposal/forme masculine du libellé

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male form of label[edit]

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

Descriptionmale form of label
Data typeMonolingual text
Domainoccupation (Q12737077) and position (Q4164871)
Examplehétaïre (Q466118) → no value
acteur (Q33999) → fr"acteur"
nephew or niece (Q76477) => en"nephew"
frato / fratino (Q31184) => eo"frato"
ondernemer (Q131524) → nl"zakenman"
politikisto (Q82955) → io"politikistulo"
dramatan (Q33999) → vo"hidramatan"
ûndernimmer (Q131524) → fy"sakeman"
Planned useI plan to add a masculine form of label to names of title and function that are feminine because at the moment some masculine terms have feminine labels but the reverse is not true, and one cannot know what is the masculine label of actress (in French)
Robot and gadget jobsit would be great to have one automatized sparql request listing feminine labels of title and functions which do not have a pending masculine label, and to enter the masculine form when it exist as well as notifying for the others that there is no feminine word associated.
See alsofemale form of label (P2521)
Motivation

Il y a une propriété forme féminine du libellé pour les noms d'occupation, et le pendant n'existe pas pour les formes masculines du libellé, ce qui serait intéressant à avoir pour les langues genrées. Nattes à chat (talk) 21:05, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there,
Being in the process (in French) of adding female form of label (P2521) to male denominations of names of occupation and professions, I have stumbled upon other difficulties:
  • some feminine words like hétaïre (Q466118) appear in the search of elements referring to an occupation or profession performed by a woman that does not have a female label. This is a strange fact for me, as these are feminine words in the first place, and not masculine. For e.g., troubadour did not have a female label, so it appeared in the search which is logical because it is a masculine word in french. Hetaire is a word used solely for women in the antiquity (ses wikipedia article on the subject: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hétaïre)
Therefore could we envisage to clarify this by:
  • either separating the two labels (for exemple acteur (Q33999) and actrice Q21169216 are separate) and include in every element a female and a masculine label. For exemple acteur (Q33999) has a female label but actrice Q21169216 does not because the property dose not exist.
  • either putting the male and female denomination together "acteur ou actrice" in the label definition to match for e.g. the english version where there is no feminine or masculine attached to a profession or occupation. If we consider the occupation, it is the same performed by both genders so should not be in two different elements. Recently on the french wiki, a tendency to separate articles describing female and male occupation (in sports) that were similar were reverted on the grounds that the activities were the same, and the separation, because of the existing gender gap, would lead to further invisibilisation of woman's articles, the male articles being far more viewed that the female.
In both cases the property male form of label should in my view be created, so we could start there and discuss the rest at length later. --Nattes à chat (talk) 11:27, 8 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion
There was no use case in the previous discussion, and now we already have 4 languages (Dutch, French, Frisian and Ido) that require this property. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 16:34, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • last discussion: Wikidata:Property proposal/male form of label --Pasleim (talk) 17:44, 8 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there any place in Wikipedia where having the label would be important for infoboxes? Currently I don't see such a usecase. * For the sake of Wikidata I think it makes sense to wait for the Wikidictionary integration. Given the recently discussed WMDE plan for having Wikidictionary and Commons integration as a priority for Wikidata development in 2017, I think it's worth the waiting. In Wikidata there's also no issue with adding additional subclasses that are gender specific.
It is currently important for the Frisian Wikipedia, take a look at this infobox, it shows both gender forms because we can't retrieve the male form. It works fine though on articles about females. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 16:34, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As far as hetaera (Q466118) being only applicable to woman, that's worthwhile information to store but that information isn't about the label that used. Using "gender:female" might work better.
As far as actor (Q33999), goes I don't think it's a item that's supposed to say anything about the gender of the person. actress (Q21169216) is instance_of Wikipedia page. It's also not a occupation that a female actor can have. I don't see the point of actress (Q21169216) as it stands currently.
There could be subclasses of actor (Q33999) for male/female actors where the items contain information about the gender. ChristianKl (talk) 12:20, 9 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
actor (Q33999) is actually gendered: it is a masculine word, and it is never used to design a female actor, who would be designed by {{Q|21169216}. It would be useful for someone to know that the male label of {{Q|21169216} is actor (Q33999). For the moment when this type of information appears, it is only appearing to give the female label. I think it should be balanced. --Nattes à chat (talk) 07:55, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, dealing with linguistic issues in Wikidata makes me unconfortable. I'd prefer to use subclass items, as items have labels, for this and dealing with this conceptually : one item for the male gender people with this occupation, and one for the female form. All of those would be subclasses of a generic item for any people who have this occupation. This would have no But IF WE REALLY can't adopt such a model, I  Support this property - as the current solution is actually an unfortunate gender bias - we implicitely assume the label of the item is a male form, actually. author  TomT0m / talk page 08:54, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
if it was possible to have a generic term for an occupation and two subclasses at the same hierarchical level that would be great, but then how would we name this in French if there is no "neutral" term? which is why, before adressing this question I suggest to create this male form of label to adress the gender bias.--Nattes à chat (talk) 07:57, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Nattes à chat: Well, it does not really matter we don't have a french neutral - first because terms do not really matters on Wikidata so we totally can use the same label for the parent item and the male one if we want to, no problem in this project because what's important is the definitions. Second because we totally can use label such as "Bucheron/bucheronne" or "Bucheron-nne". No problem at all. author  TomT0m / talk page 18:33, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Strong support Sometimes we use a neutral form for the main label, sometimes the male form and sometimes even both forms (separated by "/" or "or"). This will result in that Wikipedias using female form of label (P2521) will always show the female label for females, but will sometimes have to show a neutral or even both forms for males, because it is not possible to request a specific male form. This problem will be fully symmetrically solved by this proposal. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 00:55, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment We need this property on the Frisian Wikipedia. Most Dutch and Frisian words are neutral by default and some of them have female versions, but there are also words that don't have a neutral form and only have a male and female form. For example, the Frisian word for carpenter is "timmerman" for males and "timmerfrou" for females. Because of the unavailability of a specific male label property it looks like this in our new Wikidata template. It should look like "timmerman" for males, "timmerfrou" for females and as a neutral compromise it should show "timmerman / timmerfrou" for the few people who don't have a gender assigned. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 18:01, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • One thing we have to find out is what aspect of a word we here imply? The Swedish word "Sjuksköterska" is feminine as a word. But it is used both about male and female nurses. The male form of this word: "Sjukskötare" is male as a word, but it is also used both about males and females. These tow words are very different as occupations. The former demands an academic degree while the latter only can be found within psychiatry (Q7867). -- Innocent bystander (talk) 07:37, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Innocent bystanderI dont think this situation exist in French, a feminine word designing a male occupation. I agree that every use of a word has to be considered carefully, but then the label would be appied to specific words at a time. We would be speaking of words which design the same activity (same profession and same diploma), with the possibility of linking to the female and male expression of that same activity when it is expressed differently in a binary structured language such as French. --Nattes à chat (talk) 07:50, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Nattes à chat: In Swedish it is today common that a gender specific word is used for both males and females. Then it has become considered the "gender neutral form". "Sjuksköterska/Sjukskötare" is in that aspect little of an exception, since it has different meanings in different forms. "Lärarinna" when is is used about the 19th century also have a different meaning than "lärare" since teachers of the 19th century had different kinds of diploma depending of the gender. On svwiki the use of gender neutral forms is a common reason to editwars. The use of gender could also depend on if you are from Sweden or Finland. Gender neutral form is the normal form in Finnish and that influences also the Swedishspeaking people there. -- Innocent bystander (talk) 12:17, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You proposed previously to use aliases, but that makes it impossible to retrieve the male form systematically, which is now needed for the Frisian Wikipedia. Take a look at this infobox, it shows both gender forms because we can't retrieve the male form. It works fine though on articles about females. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 16:45, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This property would be the counterpart of the female property and both properties are to be used symmetrically. The scope of both should be at least occupation (Q12737077) and position (Q4164871). Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 15:39, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. I added that above. I think we should avoid the animal farm we had in the last proposal.
--- Jura 10:55, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Fine with me, let's only add them for human occupations and positions. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 12:01, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your previous argument was that this is in the domain of Wiktionary. In that case, would you support deletion of female form of label (P2521), which is also in the domain of Wiktionary? Both properties are equally needed for the Frisian Wikipedia. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 16:34, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Strong support This label is needed for the Ido Wikipedia. In Ido, there's always different formes for the two genders. Aktoro = actor (neutral – either or), aktorulo = actor (male), aktorino = actress. We want to show female labels for the women and male labels for the men, but this is currently impossible. The women get the female label, while the men have to get the neutral one. See io:Module:Wikidata (line 509). – Algentem (talk) 15:29, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support after hearing the Dutch infobox use case. Jane023 (talk) 17:12, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Strong support Terms previously used to indicate males exclusively are being used more and more to include women as well, the use cases support that. When you search for people in a certain profession, you want to see both genders, and therefore you need a separate label to indicate profession and gender MarjonW (talk) 19:32, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This property has nothing to do with searching. The fact that it appears to have something to do with it suggests that it's misleading and no good property. ChristianKl (talk) 20:40, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No good property? It is currently needed for already 2 Wikipedias, just as much as female form of label (P2521). Or is that also a bad property? Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 00:25, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It feels like you didn't read the sentence towards which you are replying and the argument that it makes. ChristianKl (talk) 12:30, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Oppose given the lack of defined scope for this property (my question above remained unanswered), this proposal suffers the same problems the previous ones.
    --- Jura 15:11, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Scope is defined now. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 12:01, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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