Wikidata:Property proposal/second family name in Scandinavian names
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middle family name
[edit]Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Person
Description | generally applicable, but particularly for people from Denmark or Norway where the mother's maiden name is taken on as a "middle name", |
---|---|
Represents | property |
Data type | Item |
Domain | human (Q5) |
Allowed values | family name or initial. Sometimes the full name is not determinable |
Example 1 | Bjørn Erik Broady Aasebø (Q59678508) 'middle family name' Broady (Q37541865) ('Erik' is a middle given name) |
Example 2 | Lars Meinich Andersen (Q59772921) 'middle family name' Meinich (Q30152475) |
Example 3 | Hanne Waaler Lier (Q59715170) 'middle family name' Waaler (Q21482456) |
Example 4 | Tone Tveøy Strøm Gundersen (Q59643094) 'middle family name' Strøm (Q1804061) ('Tveøy' may also be a family name, we don't have an item for it?) |
See also | family name (P734), second family name in Spanish name (P1950), patronym or matronym (P5056), birth name (P1477), family name identical to this given name (P1533) |
Motivation
[edit]see w:en:Middle_name#Scandinavia
I've been adding them as a second value to the "family name" property. This isn't entirely accurate 1Veertje (talk) 15:05, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
Discussion
[edit]- Support See also second family name in Spanish name (P1950), though the ordering in Spanish is opposite to those in your examples, so a separate property is perhaps needed. Note that en:Double-barrelled name is not restricted to Scandinavia though - could you look into how general this is and generalize the label as appropriate? ArthurPSmith (talk) 18:30, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not native to the region myself. I've been creating so many items about people from Norway because I'm processing the photographs from the Nordic Media Festival. In all I've made ~400 items for conference speakers that weren't listed on wikidata yet. It took a while for me to recognize why so many middle names weren't listed as common given names and how often those middle names looked like family names. It is common, especially in the slightly older generation it seems. 1Veertje (talk) 18:49, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
- it's definitely different from Spanish second names. Going by the Wikipedia entry about this: a family name added as a "middle name" in this way can also be in reverence to a grandmother or even a non blood relative. I've also seen it happen that, like a middle name, these names are sometimes abbreviated to just the letter. I wouldn't be surprised if the S. in Harald S. Klungtveit (Q59780807) wasn't a given name but a name like this. 1Veertje (talk) 10:30, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
- @1Veertje: Right, I'm not saying it's the same as the Spanish case, it's clearly not. However, this happens frequently in English names also - my father's middle name ("Roylance") was from a family name, not a given name. James Clerk Maxwell (Q9095) (born in Scotland) had "Clerk" coming from a family name (actually it was the family name his father was born with, a slightly more complicated case). I was suggesting this proposal ought to be for a more general property to cover all these (non-Spanish) cases. ArthurPSmith (talk) 18:48, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
- Support David (talk) 07:40, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
- Comment can we call this with a term that is used for such names? --- Jura 07:58, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
Notified participants of WikiProject Names
- Comment More on this at en:Middle name#Scandinavia. Perhaps it makes sense to limit this to Scandinavian names, as it seems to be more regulated than for English names. According to that enwiki page at least, these are simply referred to as "middle names" in Denmark and Norway, while a second given name is just one of the given names, not a "middle name" there. So "Scandinavian middle name" might be a suitable label here. Though the situation is more complicated for Sweden. Perhaps "middle family name" is a sufficiently clear neutral label? ArthurPSmith (talk) 18:54, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
- Support - Salgo60 (talk) 15:58, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
- Support - One comment though: Couldn't this be made to also include Portuguese naming convention, if I'm not mistaken they also use given name + mother's main family name + father's main family name, so reverse of what the Spanish do. Maybe other languages as well, if we do some quick research? Or maybe every language gets its own naming convention is the way to go? Just a thought. Moebeus (talk) 19:20, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Can we consider relabeling this to "middle family name" to be more general? Unless there's a better label? ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:22, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
- Comment prefer to have name fields more general, not based on nationality but based on rules. We will also have crossnational relationships, so it is not always clear which nationality a name belongs to. --Hannolans (talk) 11:12, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- @1Veertje: I've adjusted the (English) label and description to be more general, are you ok with this version? ArthurPSmith (talk) 19:29, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose even more confusing label. Is it an attempt at describing possible values (ok if better), a term used somewhere (ok if referenced), or did you just make it (not ok)? --- Jura 09:07, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support Arpyia (talk) 08:43, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
@ديفيد عادل وهبة خليل 2, Moebeus, ArthurPSmith, 1Veertje, Salgo60, Hannolans: @Arpyia, Jura1: Done: Scandinavian middle family name (P6978). − Pintoch (talk) 17:36, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Pintoch:. Given that the last question remained open, finally, is this to be a subproperty of family name (P734) ? When should it be applied? --- Jura 15:17, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Jura1: I don't have an opinion about that myself, I only created this property as it was well supported and marked as ready by ZI Jony. − Pintoch (talk) 08:35, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Pintoch: if you create properties, please ensure the property is usable and the discussion is settled. You can't rely on the proposer or another person to do your duty as property creator. --- Jura 08:40, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Jura1: yes, I think the property was mature enough to be created. It is normal that the details continue to be refined after creation. − Pintoch (talk) 08:47, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Pintoch: it's unclear to me how it's to be used. It's not well supported as the it was changed after people supported it and none of the raised concerns were addressed. Maybe you can explain when it's being used? --- Jura 08:49, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Jura1: I am sure the proposer and the other users who commented will be happy to discuss that with you. − Pintoch (talk) 08:52, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
- If you aren't sure what you created, it's preferable to delete it. Item datatype properties need more care than external-ids ones, please apply it in the future. --- Jura 09:00, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Jura1: I am sure the proposer and the other users who commented will be happy to discuss that with you. − Pintoch (talk) 08:52, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Pintoch: it's unclear to me how it's to be used. It's not well supported as the it was changed after people supported it and none of the raised concerns were addressed. Maybe you can explain when it's being used? --- Jura 08:49, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Jura1: yes, I think the property was mature enough to be created. It is normal that the details continue to be refined after creation. − Pintoch (talk) 08:47, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Pintoch: if you create properties, please ensure the property is usable and the discussion is settled. You can't rely on the proposer or another person to do your duty as property creator. --- Jura 08:40, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Jura1: I don't have an opinion about that myself, I only created this property as it was well supported and marked as ready by ZI Jony. − Pintoch (talk) 08:35, 6 July 2019 (UTC)