Wikidata:Property proposal/All the Tropes identifier

All the Tropes identifier

   Done: All the Tropes ID (P8895) (Talk and documentation)

Description	identifier in All the Tropes
Represents	All the Tropes (Q70487275)
Data type	External identifier
Domain	Wikidata item (Q16222597)
Allowed values	url-safe chars
Example 1	Game of Thrones (Q23572) → Game_of_Thrones
Example 2	A Song of Ice and Fire (Q45875) → A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire
Example 3	Lady Gaga (Q19848) → Lady_Gaga
Example 4	George R. R. Martin (Q181677) → George_R._R._Martin
Example 5	damsel in distress (Q2293837) → Damsel_in_Distress
Example 6	Death Note (Q1834) → Death_Note
Example 7	Metal Gear Solid (Q6582527) → Metal_Gear_Solid
Example 9	City of Angels (Q168010) → City_of_Angels_(film)
Example 10	Dragon Ball (Q2020) → Dragon_Ball
Example 11	Yuno Gasai (Q16650986) → Mirai_Nikki/Characters#Yuno_Gasai_-_The_2nd
Source	https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category:Trope (ATT site, existing links to it from Wikimedia sites, identifying whether there is a corresponding page for items that already have a TVT link)
External links	Use in sister projects: [ar] • [de] • [en] • [es] • [fr] • [he] • [it] • [ja] • [ko] • [nl] • [pl] • [pt] • [ru] • [sv] • [vi] • [zh] • [commons] • [species] • [wd] • [en.wikt] • [fr.wikt].
Number of IDs in source	less than 155,870 (https://allthetropes.org/wiki/special:statistics) as WD:N allows
Expected completeness	always incomplete (Q21873886)
Formatter URL	https://allthetropes.org/wiki/$1

Motivation

ATT is a fork of TV Tropes that was created after they changed their license. @Arlo Barnes, Jean-Frédéric:--Trade (talk) 12:48, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

applsdev Arlo Barnes BugWarp Coloradohusky CptViraj Cupkake4Yoshi Cwf97 Cynde Moya Danrok Datumizer Dexxor Diggr Dispenser Dollarsign8 DoublePendulumAttractor EdoAug Edolusill Eniehack Facenapalm Floyd-out FullyAwesome Harshrathod50 Jean-Frédéric Jotamide Keplersj Kirilloparma Lewis Hulbert LotsofTheories Macocobovi Macrike Master Of Ninja Matthias M. Metafire18 Nicereddy Nw520 Oduci Poslovitch Rampagingcarrot RampantSpirit Sanqui Santer Sight Contamination Sir Lothar thgiex Tomodachi94 VGPaleontologist Wd-Ryan WikiSyn YotaMoteuchi

Notified participants of WikiProject Video games

WikiProject Movies has more than 50 participants and couldn't be pinged. Please post on the WikiProject's talk page instead.

Konggaru Starry K. Erne Mogilevich Santer AldNon^Ucallinme? Thibaut120094 Shikeishu C933103 Sight Contamination -Zest Vulphere Sakretsu Jean-Frédéric Tris T7 ^{TT me}
Wallacegromit1 Jeanjung212 Bagas Chrisara ミラP CrystallineLeMonde
Nicereddy Shisma (talk) MatrosMonk Bwk24 Mickn Rin RPI2026F1 Yirba Eniehack Wiccio

Notified participants of WikiProject Anime_and_Manga--Trade (talk) 23:11, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

•  Support --Shisma (talk) 16:00, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
•  Support; it should also get a row in special:interwiki just like TVT has http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/$1 Arlo Barnes (talk) 21:00, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
•  Comment note that unlike TVT, ATT does not do namespacing in the URL, instead using subpages identified by categories. It may or may not be useful to use statement is subject of (P805) with custom items to differentiate. Arlo Barnes (talk) 21:00, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
•  Comment ATT is hosted in two places, the wiki farm known as Fandom (Q17459) (formerly 'Wikia' and still known by that name in some contexts) and the wiki farm known as Miraheze (Q42671570). Both use MediaWiki as their engine, and although they are considered parts of the same project, pages are not kept byte-for-byte in synch. Arlo Barnes (talk) 21:00, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
•  Comment I thought it appropriate to inform ATT of the proposal; here is the relevant Flow discussion at their Community Portal: https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Topic:Vwrhzonnn7c5i7pv Arlo Barnes (talk) 21:14, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
•  Comment As a site founder (of both our Wikia and Miraheze branches, which are two wings of the same organization, just hosted on different services for those who prefer one or the other), I do not believe it appropriate for me to add my support for this due to obvious bias, but I believe that my support is, regardless, obvious. That said, given our Miraheze branch is the more technologically maintained and supported in terms of regular oversight for quality, it should be considered the "default" branch of the wiki this item points towards. GethN7 (talk) 21:33, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

  We already have an identifier (Fandom article ID (P6262)) that allows us to link to articles on the ATT Wikia. @GethN7:--Trade (talk) 21:46, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

  That's good to know. I was worried it might be a problem to point to two different sites. GethN7 (talk) 22:34, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

•  Comment Fair disclosure: I am an administrator at the Miraheze version of All The Tropes. We encourage links to Wikipedia pages from our pages for creators and fictional works; having a way to link back from Wikipedia to All The Tropes would be appreciated. --Robkelk (talk) 22:39, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
•  Support; there is also a cool idea I would like to see in the future (or maybe even implement by myself): based on user-selected films, e. g. in IMDB, automatch ids to wikidata items with tvtropes/allthetropes/allthetropes.fandom, then based on links (there is a public api for fandom wiki), suggest another films to see based on common tropes. --Lockal (talk) 15:07, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
•  Comment I am also one of the admins for the Miraheze branch of All The Tropes, and while I won't make a formal vote of support for this proposal due to conflict of interest, I do support it, strongly and eagerly. We gladly encourage and welcome inbound links from the entire Mediawiki ecosphere. --Looney Toons (ATT) (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
•  Support Per nomination. Seems like a legit use case. –MJL ‐Tauk‐^☖ 08:02, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Numeric identifier

@Trade: and others: What about an URL formatter such as "https://allthetropes.org/w/index.php?curid=$1". Hence, the identifier for Game of Thrones (Q23572) is 118532. AFAIK, it is better to use the numeric identifier because it does not move while a page title can be renamed. This is what we did for the latest Mediawiki website identifiers. Pamputt (talk) 20:56, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

How am i supposed to link to iMirai_Nikki/Characters#Yuno_Gasai_-_The_2nd using the numerical ID? @Pamputt:--Trade (talk) 21:49, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@Trade: I think it would be better not to link to sections (in the same way that you don't link to the Wikipedia section; i.e. Ciri of Cintra). But if we really want to do it, we would have this identifier "74458#Yuno_Gasai_-_The_2nd". Pamputt (talk) 09:17, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

@Shisma, Arlo Barnes, GethN7, Lockal, Looney Toons (ATT), MJL: are you ok to use numerci identifier instead of page title for the identifier? Pamputt (talk) 12:19, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

 NeutralArlo Barnes (talk) 14:23, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Pamputt I only have a use for ids that can be extracted or deduced from the url 🤷 --Shisma (talk) 14:35, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

@Shisma: For your information, you can find the numeric identifier by clicking on "Page information" on the left menu (example) or searching for "wgArticleId" in the source code of the HTML page. Pamputt (talk) 16:38, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Pamputt for the best of both worlds would could probably do something like Twitter (X) username (P2002) and Twitter (X) numeric user ID (P6552): a separate property for the numeric id that a bot could aquire. That new property could be generalized for all properties that link MediaWiki pages. --Shisma (talk) 14:46, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

I could create two properties (text and numeric IDs) but I would like to be sure both properties will be used. If only one is used, then let us create only one. Pamputt (talk) 16:38, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Pamputt, "curid" is too obscure for generic users, with very little extra benefit (rename + remove old page is a rare case). We already have many links to external MediaWiki sites, nobody has ever complained about literal identifiers. Trade as for links to hashes, adding such links moves responsibility of checking non-persistent by its nature fragments on Wikidata editors shoulders. Instead, editors of "All the Tropes" should create redirect pages and keep consistency on their side. This is a win-win for both sides: both "All the Tropes" and Wikidata could link to these pages and rename sections (if needed) in a centralized manner. --Lockal (talk) 15:09, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

@Lockal: to explain how to find the numeric identifier, it is possible to use Wikidata usage instructions (P2559). When you write "nobody has ever complained about literal identifiers", I disagree and that is why I am proposing to use the numeric identifier. At least Jura1 and ArthurPSmith wrote that using a stable identifier is better than a possible non-stable one in Wikidata:Property_proposal/OpenStreetMap_user_name. And I think I read other discussions about hte interest of stable identifier even if more obscure but I could not find them for now. Pamputt (talk) 16:48, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

I had a quick look on other properties that link to external wiki websites and most of them use "string" identifier but the latest properties created seems to use preferably "numeric" identifiers (Salzburgwiki ID (P8854), FINA Wiki ID (P8861), RegiowikiAT ID (P6228), ...). It seems that there is therefore a kind of willingness to use stable identifiers Pamputt (talk) 16:58, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

We are not terribly consistent when it comes to Mediawiki sites: this can given a (possibly incomplete) overview. Initially we left them with string datatype. --- Jura 17:00, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

@Pamputt: I would very much be against using a numeric identifier for this property. Strings are more helpful for the end user to be able to contribute. Having a numeric identifier sounds great, but if a page is deleted and redirected then the identifier will change (while the string wouldn't).
However, I would be okay with the doing a Twitter (X) username (P2002) and Twitter (X) numeric user ID (P6552) type of situation where the id is just for all mediawiki sites (a property I have previously proposed before). –MJL ‐Tauk‐^☖ 19:59, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

@MJL: could you give the link to the discussion about your proposal? FYI, Shisma is currently proposing Wikidata:Property proposal/curid. Pamputt (talk) 20:10, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

@Pamputt: Wikidata:Property proposal/Mediawiki Wiki. –MJL ‐Tauk‐^☖ 20:17, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

@Shisma, Arlo Barnes, GethN7, Lockal, Looney Toons (ATT), MJL: @Trade:  Done All the Tropes ID (P8895). We will not solve the debate about the numerci identifier now so I have created the property as requested (page name). Pamputt (talk) 13:20, 30 November 2020 (UTC)