Wikidata:Translators' noticeboard

Translators' noticeboard This is a noticeboard for all matters regarding translation of pages via the Translate extension, and a meeting place for the translation administrators. Useful links: Documentation for the translation extension, Tutorial for translators. See also the sisterpage m:Meta talk:Babylon.

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Extension:Translate everywhere

Subject: Should all multilingual pages use the extension Translate?

Circumstances: Due to these modifications and these modifications.

People concerned: @Wladek92, Unite together, Lectrician1:

This is my first time using the discourage and remove from translation tools, so please don't blame me if it made a bit of a mess. After my first intervention, pages remain to be corrected because of FuzzyBot.

The reply is no. Before using the Translate extension for a page with existing translated subpages, a consensus must be obtained. There have already been requests to mark such pages for translation and they have wisely been refused. Translate was removed from such pages already in 2013. Some contributors persist in translating despite my explanations, but mostly out of historical ignorance, I think. In any case, it doesn't shock some experienced contributors to have 2 language bars!

For some languages ​​close to English this may be fine, but some rules are not suitable for others. For example, the "No initial articles" rule makes no sense in Japanese (well it seems to me, I'm not a specialist). If rules are not common to all languages, the translation of the text with the Translate extension is irrelevant.

Shouldn't we warn theses help pages (Label, Description, Aliases) with a big comment visible in wikitext? Otherwise I only see the alternative of a tool for administrators to prevent the translation of certain pages with Translate. What do you think ?

People who may be interested: @Pamputt, VIGNERON, Okkn, Stryn:. Regards. ―Eihel (talk) 15:55, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the matter that some pages should not use the Translate extension. Why should Help:Description not use it? Lectrician1 (talk) 16:27, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

yes it is difficult to understand what to do when you receive the link where to translate and you must not; lost of time ! - Christian 🇫🇷 FR (talk) 16:30, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I do not think that it was a good idea to mark that page for translation. There are language specific rules for descriptions. The page should be removed from translation system. --Ameisenigel (talk) 16:17, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

@Ameisenigel For language-specific rules, we can still use the Translate extension if we document the differences using the message documentation. Lectrician1 (talk) 16:29, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Well, the current situation is that all that was available in the target language got lost. If there have been manual translated versions, the translation admin who marks the page for translation is responsible to migrate the old content and this has not happened. I am really a fan of the translate extension but in this case it is much more difficult to maintain these pages with this extension than without it. --Ameisenigel (talk) 16:49, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

If a language-specific rule that differs from the source text is written as a translation, it must be checked each time the source text is updated, and in some cases the part may be lost. Afaz (talk) 02:22, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

@Afaz Then maybe we should make the policy that when the page is being marked for translation that it should be selected that changes should not be forwarded to translations. Lectrician1 (talk) 03:19, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I strongly oppose to use Extension:Translate in Label, Description and Aliases help pages. This proposal has been rejected many times, for example read Help talk:Description#Change to translatable page? or Help talk:Description#Make translatable. Furthermore, all existing policies for the various languages have been lost now. --β₁₆ - (talk) 09:26, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

It has not been rejected "multiple times". All of the discussions relate back to the one proposal in 2013. Lectrician1 (talk) 18:33, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

You give my example again, Lectrician1, then Beta16 gives you 2 other examples just above. I think we can say that it is "rejected multiple times". ―Eihel (talk) 21:43, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

The two examples above are people asking and then someone linking the 2013 proposal... Lectrician1 (talk) 22:16, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

and… So that means it was rejected multiple times (even if it's on the same discussion). If the 2013 discussion seems problematic to you, we can discuss it. Frankly, I don't see your problem and I don't understand what your information brings. The page is not marked for translation for a reason. This reasoning is still relevant 9 years later, quite simply. ―Eihel (talk) 04:25, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• Afaz seems to come to the same conclusion (here) as me on the example of Japanese, I am reassured. But all languages are concerned: the German "das" has no French correspondence for example, etc. Translators base themselves on a common idea, but the explanation is adapted in the target language, hence the first language bar ({{DescriptionLanguages}}). The already existing translated pages (before being marked in translation) have been updated by FuzzyBot. ―Eihel (talk) 11:47, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

If there are no other comments, in the next few days I will remove the translation from this page. --β₁₆ - (talk) 08:28, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I have now removed the page from the translation system since there is no consensus to use the extension for this page. Please gain consensus before marking the page for translation again. --Ameisenigel (talk) 07:01, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Ameisenigel ―Eihel (talk) 22:42, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Another discussion

I just thought of this, but wouldn't it be better to have the language-specific guidelines on a separate page that would not use the Translate extension? That way the useful information that is consistent across the languages like no promotional content can be translated with the extension. Lectrician1 (talk) 18:38, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

This is a nice proposal. There should be a legitimate discussion (say RfC) and a conclusion be made at least after 30 days. We cannot held few little opposes (so called rejections that base on 2013 proposal) from past to say something is "unlawful by the community consensus". We need to create the consensus first and AFAICS it doesn't exist. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 15:57, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

I will create a new discussion on this page and post notices on the Label, Description, and Aliases pages of such discussion if one other person is in-support of this proposal. Lectrician1 (talk) 19:55, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

For information :

• Hello Lectrician1 , This was already the case before the page was marked for translation. Just add {{Help:Description/general principles/XXX}} on the pages that were already translated before (replace XXX with the target language). Separate pages, on language-specific guidelines, would double the page count (compared to the state of the page before September 23) if your idea is implemented! What matters in this section is the return to consistency, so without Translate.
• Hello TheAafi , Yes, other people have already thought about the problems here, in 2013 and in July 2018. Yes, these pages have not been marked for translation in 9 years. Does this disqualify the work/vote of other contributors? No. Language-specific rules had to be applied at that time. These rules have been applied by removing the Translate extension (since Translate harmonizes translations…). Using Translate plus adding language-specific pages doubles the number of pages. Making nonsensical RfCs is not the cure for all ills. If the problem is the same since 2013, using Translate doesn't make more sense today, quite simply. ―Eihel (talk) 04:25, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

@Eihel If you're concerned about the page count doubling, we could transculde the language-specific instruction pages on the main page. Lectrician1 (talk) 17:15, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

@Eihel Any response? Lectrician1 (talk) 17:31, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Please respond above. Lectrician1 (talk) 17:31, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Lectrician1. I didn't understand that you were asking me a question.

My interest in coming here is feedback on the use of Translate in pages that shouldn't use it and nothing else. Now, the page has reverted to its pre-September 23 version. It is for this reason that this section is resolved.

• In your first intervention in this section, you ask why you shouldn't use Translate. Currently, you realize that the language-specific pages are different both in content and in form. So they are not translated identically as Translate does.
• In your second intervention, you claim that we can use the Translate extension by documenting the differences. Translations made with Translate should be as close as possible to the source text, following this section.
• In your third intervention, you claim that changes should not be forwarded to translations. With Translate, the target language pages would not have to be completed separately and there would be practically no message to translate, since the general message is a template.
• For your information, the last refusal to use Translate dates from November 2021 on this noticeboard. So there have really been several proposals refused in 9 years.
• I think I have replied your fifth and sixth interventions. To reply your last message: with your proposal (transculde the language-specific instruction pages on the main page), the Special:MyLanguage/Help:Description link would no longer work. WD pages are only displayed in one language. Methods for a page with multiple languages are way too heavy in this case. If I don't want to unnecessarily multiply the number of pages, I don't want to divide the number of pages by two either. Think that others have already thought about the problem and the solution adopted is completely accepted. Cordially. ―Eihel (talk) 06:56, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Special:MyLanguage/Help:Description link would no longer work. WD pages are only displayed in one language. Methods for a page with multiple languages are way too heavy in this case

@Eihel How this would work is we would use the Translate Extension on Help:Description and not use it on a separate language-specific guidelines page called Help:Description/Guidelines. Help:Description/Guidelines would then be transcluded on Help:Description as {{Special:MyLanguage/Help:Description/Guidelines}} and thus show the correct language if it exists on Help:Description when that page is shown in a specific language. This functionality is possible. Lectrician1 (talk) 13:24, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I do not really see the problem here, we already have Help:Description for language-specific content and Help:Description/general principles for content that is not language-specific and the page for general principles is translatable through the translate extension. --Ameisenigel (talk) 19:53, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

The section Help:Description#Guidelines for descriptions in English is only specific to English should be on the separate page at Help:Description/Guidelines that is then transcluded on this page. Likewise, the other translations of Help:Description that have their own "Guidelines for their language" sections should be moved to separate pages at [[Help:Description/Guidelines/<langcode>]]... Lectrician1 (talk) 20:15, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Hello Lectrician1 , Your last proposal seems better to me. So the page would look like this (new in bold):
<languages/>

{{shortcut|WD:D}}

{{DescriptionLanguages}}

{{Guideline}}

{{nutshell|<translate>…</translate>}}

[[{{LM |file…}}|thumb|upright=1.5|<translate>…</translate>]]

<translate>

The '''description''' on a Wikidata…

</translate>


<translate>

== Language-independent general principles ==

</translate>


<translate>

=== Avoid information that is likely to change ===

</translate>

<translate>

…

</translate>

{{TNT|Help:Description/Guidelines}}

<translate>PAGE BOTTOM</translate>

There will be two pages less, it seems to me (without taking footers into account). It will be necessary to save the messages already translated (to put them back with Translate). You will also need to use NOINCLUDE tags for the language bar of specific pages. Cordially. ―Eihel (talk) 11:54, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes! Looks great! Since you have the code down, go ahead an implement it and create the new Guidelines pages at any time! Lectrician1 (talk) 14:24, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

What do you think, @Ameisenigel, Pamputt, Tacsipacsi, β16: ? Help:Label and Help:Aliases can also be affected. Cordially. ―Eihel (talk) 20:34, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

sorry, @Beta16: ―Eihel (talk) 20:36, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

OK for me. We just need to make sure that no content get lost. --Ameisenigel (talk) 03:05, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Nice proposal, it seems OK to me. And yes, Help:Label and Help:Aliases can also use the same method. --β₁₆ - (talk) 08:14, 7 October 2022 (UTC)