Wikidata:Property proposal/Nomenclature de tous les noms de rosiers

Nomenclature de tous les noms de roses connus ID[edit]

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Natural science

Done: Nomenclature de tous les noms de rosiers ID (P11267) (Talk and documentation)

Description	identifier of a rose cultivar in "Nomenclature de tous les noms de roses, connus, avec indication de leur race, obtenteur, année de production, couleur et synonymes", 2nd edition, by Léon Simon and Pierre Cochet
Represents	Nomenclature de tous les noms de roses (Q96643524)
Data type	External identifier
Domain	rose cultivar (Q26817508)
Allowed values	`([1-9]\d{0,3}\|1[01]\d\d\d)[a-z]`
Example 1	Rosa 'Belle Poitevine' (Q60965265) → 1409
Example 2	Rosa 'Belle Biblis' (Q83673639) → 1226
Example 3	Rosa 'Belle Herminie' (Q83673647) → 1340
Example 4	Rosa 'Belle Isis' (Q60964253) → 1355
Example 5	Rosa 'James Bougault' (Q64030579) → 4935
Example 6	Rosa 'James Mitchell' (Q83668435) → 4938
Example 7	Rosa 'James Veitch' (Q83672920) → 4941
Example 8	Rosa 'Jeanne de Montfort' (Q83660038) → 5027
Example 9	Rosa 'Jeanne Masson' (Q83673867) → 5044
Example 10	Rosa 'Comte Adrien de Germiny' (Q60965024) → 2388
Example 11	Rosa 'Comte de Chambord' (Q60964318) → 2401
Example 12	Rosa 'Comte de Montalivet' (Q96277233) → 2415
Example 13	Rosa 'Mademoiselle Claudine Perreau' (Q83672486) → 7181
Example 14	Rosa 'Mademoiselle Christine de Nouë' (Q83671406) → 7174
Example 15	Rosa 'Mademoiselle Blanche Lafitte' (Q60964631) → 7164
Example 16	Rosa 'Princesse Louise' (Q83674468) → 9105
Example 17	Rosa 'Adrienne de Cardoville' (Q83673585) → 288
Source	Nomenclature de tous les noms de roses (Q96643524) pp. 1-170
Planned use	add to some existing ones [1], create new ones
Number of IDs in source	>10000
Expected completeness	always incomplete (Q21873886)
See also	Les Roses cultivées à L'Haÿ en 1902 ID (P8662)
Applicable "stated in"-value	Nomenclature de tous les noms de roses (Q96643524)
Distinct-values constraint	yes

Motivation[edit]

Provides a simple way to cross-reference our items about cultivars with Nomenclature de tous les noms de roses (Q96643524) (Add your motivation for this property here.) --- Jura 12:08, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The identifier used in the work is unique. It is generally numeric (<12000), sometimes followed by a letter (a-z). I added that to the regex above. A formatter url isn't available, but this isn't a requirement for external-id properties. --- Jura 14:32, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Taxonomy has more than 50 participants and couldn't be pinged. Please post on the WikiProject's talk page instead. --- Jura 12:08, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Notified participants of WikiProject Botany --- Jura 08:52, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

this numbers? --Succu (talk) 20:15, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, Nomenclature de tous les noms de roses (Q96643524) pages 1-170 --- Jura 05:47, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
~~Support~~ Neutral ~~Well founded. Nothing else to add.~~ As Succu pointed out, Catalog and Catalog number might be enough for this need. M.A. Miron (📬) 00:20, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Personally, I find a distinct property make checks on old roses easier. I'd try to do more than copy the same label to countless languages separately. --- Jura 09:04, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Use stated in (P248)=Nomenclature de tous les noms de roses (Q96643524) and catalog code (P528), page(s) (P304). --Succu (talk) 06:41, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- The primary use of this property would be for main statements (see domain/samples). stated in (P248) can't be used for that. (I don't think the page number is important once we have the id.) The idea is to include Nomenclature de tous les noms de roses (Q96643524) like a database, version 1906. --- Jura 12:41, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Could you please give examples where this number is cited? --Succu (talk) 16:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - French Wikipedia uses the work as a reference, but cites with page numbers rather than the id. --- Jura 16:41, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      - So I guess this number is not really notable. stated in (P248) for taxon name (P225) as suggested should work. --Succu (talk) 20:56, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        If the names were unique, one might do that. However they are not. I think French Wikipedia just didn't get to the the level where it matters.
        Also, we would have a harder time trying to figure out which ones are missing.
        In any case, while it could also be used as a reference, the primary use would be for main statements with a unique value constraint.
        BTW, As there are identifiers with a-z after the number, I suspect the identifiers are stable between the first and the second edition, but I haven't found a copy of the first edition. --- Jura 04:45, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        
        I see the point made by Succu; catalogue code does the trick (example done for Rosa 'Belle Poitevine' (Q60965265)) M.A. Miron (📬) 04:35, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        @Marc André Miron: yes, that could be another option. It would be exquivalent except for the unique value constraint. Also one would have to add slightly more (i.e. the qualifier). --- Jura 04:45, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        @Jura1: About the unique value constraint: I noticed that in the book, some species seem to have multiple entries, say for example Rose à coeur jaune that has id 18 and 19. Can't we create two catalogue codes pointing to the same catalogue for any Wikidata item? M.A. Miron (📬) 05:09, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        @Marc André Miron: they might be two different cultivars (see "obtenteurs", also "année" on one), so I'd create two items. If they were same, yes, the two identifiers would be one the same item. The unique value constraint mainly avoids/detects that e.g. "18" appears on two separate items. --- Jura 05:23, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        Oh ok I see, thanks. M.A. Miron (📬) 05:27, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        
        @Marc André Miron: Les Roses cultivées à L'Haÿ en 1902 ID (P8662) can show how it works out. --- Jura 07:28, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        It didn't work at all. A random example: Rosa alba (Q478530) (=300) has two numbers 137 and 3300. --Succu (talk) 19:07, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        Good pick. Fixed that one: there are indeed two for this: I think it means they planted the same at two places: once in the collection botanique and once in the collection horticole. Cultivars should have unique numbers in Hay's. --- Jura 19:22, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        The point is that these numbers a not intended to be an ID (or a catalouge number). --Succu (talk) 19:56, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        
        How would you qualify Hay's? --- Jura 21:02, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        Qualify? It's simply a reference (mentioned in). --Succu (talk) 20:58, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        I don't quite see the difference, but Hay's is probably better discussed elsewhere. --- Jura 09:43, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support I find catalog codes less useful than dedicated properties. Mix'n'match is harder, constraints are harder, queries are harder.... So when there are enough items, I support making a property. --99of9 (talk) 01:22, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support --Tinker Bell ★ ♥ 17:59, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]