Talk:Q13406554

New label "sports festival"

Not sure what to think of that, especially as Q18608583 was made "recurring sports festival". Can we revert to the original labels? For non-sports events, "festival" already implies re-occurrence. --- Jura 13:20, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

The basic issue here is that sports competition (Q13406554) (this item) and sporting event (Q16510064) were not well defined for a long time; the latter was a subclass of the former, thus is often seemed difficult to choose the correct one. I had this issue in mind for a prolonged time, but it was recently brought to more attention by User:LEW21 (who is pretty new here, but seems to be quite aware of how things work).

The change that is being implemented currently is that sporting event (Q16510064) is all about the competitive part of an event in sport (i.e. items of that type have properties such as "participant", "winner", "competition class", "number of competitors" – and, connected via part of (P361), an event of the type sports competition (Q13406554); the main subclass relation connects sporting event (Q16510064) to competition (Q476300).

This item sports competition (Q13406554) subclasses event (Q1656682), thus suitable properties are "start time", "end time", "organizer", "official website", "location" (venue), and so on. The actual sporting events are connected via has part(s) (P527).

Pretty much all of this remains unchanged, apart from the fact that sports competition (Q13406554) no longer subclasses competition (Q476300), but sporting event (Q16510064) now does so instead while no longer subclassing sports competition (Q13406554). In order to avoid confusion, I think a less competition-oriented label for sports competition (Q13406554) is a good idea (the old label went to the aliases), and "festival" is a suggestion brought up by User:LEW21. If there are better suggestions, I think we are all open to hear them. —MisterSynergy (talk) 13:36, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Where does recurring sporting event (Q18608583) go in this?

It seems to be me that "sports festival edition" would be better for this item. --- Jura 13:40, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

This one (sports competition (Q13406554)) is still the important one, to be used with the class–instance model as in the past.
We use recurring sporting event (Q18608583) as value for instance of (P31) for classes such as Olympic Games (Q5389) that would otherwise not have a instance of (P31) claim at all. Some users do not like the lack of instance of (P31), and deliberately put wrong values in when there is no such claim available. instance of (P31): recurring sporting event (Q18608583) prevents this pattern quite effectively, but it otherwise does not have a real need. —MisterSynergy (talk) 13:55, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

I suppose we should discuss where this items is used and if that is with P31 or P279.

How about 1985 World Indoor Bowls Championship (Q20805523)? Currently it's using it with instance of (P31). I think "sports festival edition" would work well there. --- Jura 14:05, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Well, this is the usage statistics (mainsnak only). Use of recurring sporting event (Q18608583) has not really been changed recently, and it is with very few exceptions in use with instance of (P31) or category-related properties. This has never been any different. In fact, all items with "recurrent", "recurring", or "edition" in the English label are used this way: as a placeholder to occupy otherwise empty instance of (P31) spots.
1985 World Indoor Bowls Championship (Q20805523) was an instance of sports competition (Q13406554), thus there is no requirement to use recurring sporting event (Q18608583) at all. However, it is be better to use World Indoor Bowls Championships (Q8035852) as value and make that item a subclass-of sports competition (Q13406554) (that would be the standard practice in the field of sport; as nobody had done that yet, I have so just now). —MisterSynergy (talk) 14:13, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Your query is about recurring sporting event (Q18608583) not sports competition (Q13406554).

Well, film festivals used to have three or four different models until it was sorted out. The outcome seems to be fairly stable.

So the actual "editions" would be instances of items that have sports competition (Q13406554).

Looking at the instances of sports competition (Q13406554) are actually recurring. World Indoor Bowls Championships (Q8035852) using it with P279 instead of P31 is not the general case. --- Jura 14:35, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, from the context of the discussion I thought you talk about recurring sporting event (Q18608583), not sports competition (Q13406554). Thus the query for it. Use of sports competition (Q13406554) is generally less organized, as there is no standard documented anywhere.
Can you briefly describe how the field of film festivals is organized? I have not participated in any discussions there, and I am not aware of their model. —MisterSynergy (talk) 18:10, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

There are just two different P31 values: film festival (Q220505) and film festival edition (Q27787439). Most items should be an instance of one or the other.

WikiProject_Movies/lists/film festivals this month gives a list for festivals held this month, even if most don't have an item for the current edition.

At some point, there were probably as many variations asfor sports competitions even if the field doesn't go into as much detail as sports.

The entire awards business is separate. --- Jura 18:19, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

How do they link film festival instances to their classes? Using part of the series (P179)?
I would already be happy if there was better organization possible within the field of sports. Due to the way how events are organized with sub-events, this is difficult enough and probably per se more complicated than film festivals… —MisterSynergy (talk) 18:33, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Surely. Tennis got much better during the last iteration and even there it wasn't really simple. --- Jura 19:02, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I did some more investigation. Film festivals do indeed use part of the series (P179) to link classes and instances, and it seems that each (or most) of these claims generate a value-type constraint (Q21510865) violation. In total there are some 2–3k items available for film festivals, which is at least two orders of magnitudes less than in the field of sports. —MisterSynergy (talk) 19:28, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

LEW borked them [1]. --- Jura 19:41, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

I did so as well [2] after he reverted his edit. The item was subclass of event (Q1656682) for a long time, until User:Luccnoir switched it to recurring event (Q15275719) in 2018 [3] for some reason. It is not clear to me why recurring event (Q15275719) is more appropriate here. The entire scheme with "recurring X" items is just an auxiliary model, but clearly not something to build item and class definitions on. —MisterSynergy (talk) 19:56, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

I think that recurring event (Q15275719) should not be interpreted as "something that happens according to a schedule", but as "something that may happen one or more times". So: If an event happens for the first time - we get an item for it, that is classified with this class. Then, if somebody repeats it - and the editions themselves are deemed noteworthy - we create two new items, for the first and second editions separately, and the old item represents the whole series. LEW21 (talk) 08:55, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Oh, so it was this way since April 8, 2018, and I've broken it on Feb 12, 2020, just to fix it on Feb 14, and have it reverted back to broken on Feb 17 by MisterSynergy :D Sorry for making the chaos here :D Can we revert it back to a recurring event? LEW21 (talk) 09:06, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

I think a recurring event has editions. Most properties on editions have values that are generally different on each edition. OTH, some see each lap as an instance of Olympic Games, others each as a "part of". --- Jura 12:59, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

• Back to the initial question: If we name this "sports festival" and apply it with P31 to items like World Indoor Bowls Championships (Q8035852), I'd use "sports festivals group" to Q18608583. --- Jura 12:59, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
  • I think it is clear at this point that recurring sporting event (Q18608583) is the metaclass item to the concept sports competition (Q13406554). Thus, both should share the same terminology, which currently is "sports festival". We can continue to discuss this, of course.
    The other question is how to name the metaclass. "Group" is a fairly unusual term in my experience. I am not sure whether it is formally correct at all, and editors will probably be pretty confused about it. Usually, these sorts of metaclasses are named "type", i.e. in this case "sports festival type". —MisterSynergy (talk) 13:49, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
    • I'm fine with that name. --- Jura 13:52, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

The new name "sporting festival" makes no sense to me

I was looking for an item for "sporting event" and I can not find one. Eventually I fount that the label for "sporting event", an "athletic contest between competitors resulting in a winner" item was changed to a "sports festival", a "event taking a couple of days, during which one or more sporting events are held". I agree that we might need items for both but you should not change meaning of existing items. Maybe it is British vs. US English but I have never heard of "sport festivals", while we have plenty of single or multi day "sporting events" for some sports it will be a single game between 2 teams, or you have multiple boxing matches, swim heats, running races, etc. per event. Most small events are single day events, but some might take several days. I think that was how this item was used for years and the current redefinition does not seem to match the meaning in the items which are already using it. Also what are we suppose to use for single day sport events? --Jarekt (talk) 20:33, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

sporting event (Q16510064) is not that difficult to find.
This item was not really re-defined, although the label change might give the impression. It was formerly labelled "sports competition", and users continuously failed to use it and sporting event (Q16510064) properly. The entire field of items related to events in sports is thus unfortunately pretty crappy and it was important to make the difference clearer. If you have any particular improvements in mind, feel free to make a proposal here. —MisterSynergy (talk) 21:54, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

I changed the label and description, to match those of the other languages. Not all sport competitions, that span more than one sporting event (Q16510064) also span more than one day. Maybe "sports event" should be used as a neutral label. --MB-one (talk) 11:38, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

I am fine with the changed description, but not with the new (old) label. This item should have a distinctively different label as sporting event (Q16510064), in order to avoid confusion. Unfortunately, users tend to mess these two up all the time. ---MisterSynergy (talk) 11:49, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

@MisterSynergy: How about "sports event" then? --MB-one (talk) 12:24, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

"sports event" (Q13406554) and "sporting event" (Q16510064)? That would be the most confusing solutions of all.
I am not a native English speaker, thus probably not the most qualified person to make a real decision here. A problem here is certainly that "event" is a pretty ambiguous term in English; however, sports competition (Q13406554) as a subclass of event (Q1656682) (German: "Veranstaltung") is distinctively different from sporting event (Q16510064) as a subclass of competition (Q841654) (German: "Wettkampf" or "Wettbewerb").
Another option would be to reconsider the label of sporting event (Q16510064); maybe it could assume the "competition" term instead of "event", and make place for "event" in sports competition (Q13406554)? Some input by English speakers would be helpful for sure. ---MisterSynergy (talk) 12:41, 19 October 2020 (UTC)