Property talk:P2416

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Documentation

sports discipline competed in
discipline an athlete competed in within a sport
Representssport discipline (Q2312410)
Data typeItem
Domainhuman (Q5), fictional human (Q15632617), sports team (Q12973014) and sport competition (Q13406554)
ExampleHaile Gebrselassie (Q171500)marathon (Q40244), 5000 metres (Q240500), 10,000 metres (Q3428429) and half marathon (Q215677)
Galina Zybina (Q3773)shot put (Q180935), javelin throw (Q178108) and discus throw (Q182570)
Tracking: usageCategory:Pages using Wikidata property P2416 (Q23909144)
See alsosport (P641)
Lists
Proposal discussionProperty proposal/Archive/42#P2416
Current uses16,594
[create] Create a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here
Type “human (Q5), fictional human (Q15632617), sports team (Q12973014), sport competition (Q13406554): element must contain property “instance of (P31)” with classes “human (Q5), fictional human (Q15632617), sports team (Q12973014), sport competition (Q13406554)” or their subclasses (defined using subclass of (P279)). (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P2416#Type Q5, Q15632617, Q12973014, Q13406554, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)
Value type “sport discipline (Q2312410), type of sport (Q31629): This property should use items as value that contain property “instance of (P31)”. On these, the value for instance of (P31) should be an item that uses subclass of (P279) with value sport discipline (Q2312410), type of sport (Q31629) (or a subclass thereof). (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Constraint violations/P2416#Value type Q2312410, Q31629, SPARQL, SPARQL (new)

Please notify projects that use this property before big changes (renaming, deletion, merge with another property, etc.)

Discussion[edit]

difference with sport (P641) ?[edit]

1. Can someone explain me the difference with sport (P641), which is also applied on persons.
2. if P641 is present on an item of a person, should P641 be removed when P2416 is added (because it is more specific for a person item, and there the prefered property)?.
Michiel1972 (talk) 11:11, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

P641 should not be used for persons and P2416 should replace it in items about persons. --Stryn (talk) 13:23, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
Not sure that I agree?!
In my case, the sport of Diving, a person might start to practice at the age 6 and for the first time compete internationally when they are 14 in some event like 3m springboard. At age 16 the start compteting in 10m platform and from the age of 19 stop competeting 3m all together. At age 24 they also start coaching, stop competing when they are 29, but then entering an international sports committee on the subject. Stop coaching at age 52 and the committee work at age 60.
I would expect p641 to outline the complete timeline from age 6 to age 60, while more specific statement like p2416 applies to the different events they compete in from at 14-19 and 16-29. Their stint as coach or member of committees will then be encoded in separate statements.
Does it make sense? --VicVal (talk) 13:23, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Some comments:
  • As Stryn said, sport (P641) should not be used for persons (although technically okay), but I’d replace P641 by occupation (P106) statements and not by P2416. P106 is about notable occupations (paid and unpaid) for all kinds of persons, not just in the field of sports (i.e. it has the most general scope). Structural items for occupations can be created if necessary and subclass proper general structural items; the imaginary diving person in question here would then get P106 statements with diver (Q16004431), “diving coach”, and “diving official” (the latter two need to be created).
  • sports discipline competed in (P2416) is more useful as a qualifier on participation statements. For the most important sports event like the Olympics we have items down to the event level and thus don’t need P2416, but this is not the case for all noteable events. Therefore, if there are no event-level items we can use P2416 like that:
You would need to define a structural item for the “10 metre platform” discipline (and probably others) of course.
  • Apart from that, I don’t know whether P2416 is useful as a standalone statement for sports persons. We should really avoid using competing properties to say effectively the same (for example usage of P641, P101, P106, and P2416 just to say that someone did something related to athletics, as in Haile Gebrselassie (Q171500)). However, types of sports are very different, so maybe it could be useful for some of them.
MisterSynergy (talk) 14:23, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
There was some inconclusive debate about the use of P641 .. I think even MisterSynergy agreed that it can initially be applied.
--- Jura 14:26, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
For reference: recent debate in WD:PC archive. —MisterSynergy (talk) 14:31, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
For the second bullet in MisterSynergys post I find this to be wrong. I believe that we should have a consistent way of encoding (in this case) dive meets, dive events and dive entries, not merely replicate the articles that is available on Wikipedia projects. So I would definiteively prefer to create the 10 Event items the describes the 2007 Aquatics Championships. In that way I'm also able to add specifics like the date of each competition, etc. --VicVal (talk) 14:52, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
The second point was meant to illustrate a proper use of P2416 on an example item that does not yet have individual event items. I agree with you that the World Champs could and should have individual event items (for example the 2015 edition of diving World Champs has), but there are many less important competitions where this is not the case. There are even competitions for which we do not create instance items for each edition, but instead just a “class like” overview item for the recurring event. P2416 would be useful for those as well. —MisterSynergy (talk) 21:59, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

removed "or event"[edit]

Because participant of (P1344) was used at Haile Gebrselassie (Q171500). d1g (talk) 12:04, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

sport competition (Q13406554) type constraint?[edit]

@Mormegil: which problem do you want to solve with this new type constraint? It does not fit at all to the definition of this property, since sports competitions cannot compete in disciplines by themselves… —MisterSynergy (talk) 13:14, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

@MisterSynergy: How should we distinguish e.g. Athletics at the 1936 Summer Olympics – Men's discus throw (Q3628462) from Athletics at the 1936 Summer Olympics – Men's 800 metres (Q3628457)? Either we need to set sport (P641) to the specific discipline (then, what is the point of the distinction between P641 and P2416?), or we need to keep P641 set to the common athletics (Q542) and distinguish the disciplines using P2416. Any other idea? --Mormegil (talk) 14:14, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
You’re looking for the competition class (P2094) property: Not sure how the situation in the field of athletics is, but I guess you need to set up proper value items once (I just created the example item men's discus throw (Q55216991), feel free to do so for all other relevant athletics events). User:Habst would also need them soon for their current bot project… —MisterSynergy (talk) 14:25, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
What I did for this is just use competition class (P2094) with two values, i.e. male (Q6581097) and discus throw (Q182570). I'm not sure if all the duplication would be a good idea, because the per-event articles on Wikipedia generally deal with both genders at once. --Habst (talk) 15:53, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Do they? My impression is that this is in most situations just not the case. See en:Template:AthleticsAt2016SummerOlympics for example: it lists all athletics events, per discipline and gender. It will definitely be similar for other editions of the Olympics, but I don’t know how the situation regarding other meetings is.
In case of a situation where men's and women's events are described in one article, one either had to add both gender-specific competition class items, or find a way to split the content at Wikidata. There is a similar situation in tennis btw. —MisterSynergy (talk) 16:01, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, I wasn't being clear at all there. What I meant is we have articles (and Wikidata items) for things like w:Discus throw but not w:Men's discus throw. I agree that at meets the articles are separated per gender and event. Currently I just have a manual mapping from string like "400 M" to 400 metres (Q334734). If someone were to create the ~50 gender-specific event items and list them somewhere, I would have no problem converting my program to use them but I'm not sure if it would be better to accomplish the same thing using the items we already have. --Habst (talk) 16:53, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Accessibility with queries is much better if we use the proposed model, which is the main reason why I propose it here. I could offer to create those items, but it will probably take two weeks (busy in real life…). If you start with your approach now, it should not be that difficult to automatically update it to the other model later (so don’t wait for me). —MisterSynergy (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
OK. I'll probably create the rest of them later today. I'll just try to create male and female versions of the 36 events I have in the bot right now (so 72 new items total). Of course there are further questions about edge cases like classifying the events at the w:2016 World Masters Athletics Championships, but for now I'll leave those unanswered and not deal with it. --Habst (talk) 19:09, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Yeah that’s fine, special cases can be dealt with later on a case-by-case basis. —MisterSynergy (talk) 22:34, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Was going to have the bot create all those event items today but after filling out the original list to match the IAAF ones, it looks like it'll actually be just over 100 new items so I'm going to hold off until the bot is approved and has the bot flag before making them. --Habst (talk) 04:49, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
So I had the bot create all the gendered items today and it should use them going forward (and retroactively I changed all the Bolt races). The full list is in the code starting at line 214 right now if anyone is interested. --Habst (talk) 04:35, 29 June 2018 (UTC)