Wikidata:Property proposal/ranking order

ranking order

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Sports

   Not done

Description	the ranking of an object in an order
Data type	Quantity
Template parameter	"continentalcup1" in en:Infobox football league season -->
Allowed units	1-
Example 1	2017–18 Premier League (Q28842253) → qualifies for event (P3085) → 2018–19 UEFA Champions League (Q30032467) → ranking order → 1 2017–18 Premier League (Q28842253) → qualifies for event (P3085) → 2018–19 UEFA Europa League (Q30126418) → ranking order → 2
Example 2	Premier League (Q9448) → qualifies for event (P3085) → UEFA Champions League (Q18756) → ranking order → 1 Premier League (Q9448) → qualifies for event (P3085) → UEFA Europa League (Q18760) → ranking order → 2
Example 3	MISSING
Source	external reference URL, Wikipedia list article

Motivation

I know that my property name is.. problematic. I have already ask to project chat but no one answered. Wikidata:Project chat/Archive/2018/06#Qualifies for event. I have used series ordinal (P1545) but I am not sure if is it correct. I am proposing this qualifier. If it is not created, I am sure the users will tell me what to use to solve the problem.

Example,

⟨ 2017–18 La Liga (Q24529775)    ⟩ qualifies for event (P3085) ⟨ 2018–19 UEFA Champions League (Q30032467)    ⟩

and

⟨ 2017–18 La Liga (Q24529775)    ⟩ qualifies for event (P3085) ⟨ 2018–19 UEFA Europa League (Q30126418)    ⟩

(We are also using winner (P1346) as a qualifier)

While trying to find a way to solve a problem about fetching that data from Wikidata to Wikipedia, I realize that we don't have in that data something to show which of event is the "best". I mean that the first teams qualifies to Champions League, that is the event that the best teams of the league qualifies to. So I suggest that

⟨ 2017–18 La Liga (Q24529775)    ⟩ qualifies for event (P3085) ⟨ 2018–19 UEFA Champions League (Q30032467)    ⟩
series ordinal (P1545) ⟨ 1 ⟩

and

⟨ 2017–18 La Liga (Q24529775)    ⟩ qualifies for event (P3085) ⟨ 2018–19 UEFA Europa League (Q30126418)    ⟩
series ordinal (P1545) ⟨ 2 ⟩

Or something else, if someone has an idea.

And, I suggest to use series ordinal (P1545) even if the event qualifies only for one event. P1545 must be use obligatorily with qualifies for event (P3085). But I am no sure if that is the best qualifier.

Xaris333 (talk) 10:12, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

 Support I think this makes sense, and could be used quite generally. We have some rather specific rank-related properties for bicycle races. ArthurPSmith (talk) 19:06, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

 Comment @Xaris333: can you comment on how this differs from ranking (P1352)? It seems very close... ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:45, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

ranking (P1352) description: "the subject's numbered position within a tournament or group of performers". ranking (P1352) is showing the position a team or a person take after a tournament etc. My proposal is just show what it the most important. Xaris333 (talk) 18:31, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, I see, it's complicated. I'm not too familiar with these tournaments, could you clarify that for example the meaning here is that the team with ranking (P1352) 1 in 2017–18 Premier League (Q28842253) qualifies for 2018–19 UEFA Champions League (Q30032467), while the team with ranking (P1352) 2 qualifies for 2018–19 UEFA Europa League (Q30126418)? Maybe the English title then could be "ranking required to qualify"? ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:26, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

@ArthurPSmith: Not like that. For 2017–18 Premier League (Q28842253) the better international competition to qualify is 2018–19 UEFA Champions League (Q30032467). The first 4 teams qualified at this competitions. (In other countries only the champions qualified, in other the first two countries, in other the first 3 countries). The next 2 teams (5th, 6th) qualifies to 2018–19 UEFA Europa League (Q30126418), the second better international competition they can qualify. Years ago there were a third better international competition to qualify (UEFA Intertoto Cup (Q182068)). Maybe that will help you understand: w:2018–19 UEFA Champions League#Association team allocation and w:2018–19 UEFA Europa League#Association team allocation. To say it more simple: the best competition to qualify is Champions league, not Europa league. This is the competition the better teams of a championship qualify to. Xaris333 (talk) 18:40, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

@Xaris333: how about modeling it with a "maximum rank to qualify" parameter, which for 2017–18 Premier League (Q28842253) would be 4 for the Champions League, 6 for the Europa League, but for other countries would be different numbers as you indicate? ArthurPSmith (talk) 19:12, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

@ArthurPSmith: Is not that information I want to add. I want to show which international competition a team can qualify if the best one, the second one, the third one. The amount of the teams is already modeling, just by counting the teams of the qualifier winner (P1346). Xaris333 (talk) 19:19, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

@Xaris333: I get what you are going for, but I'm not seeing the purpose. You already show which teams are qualified for the next series, and the rankings of those teams is modeled, so from that, it should be clear which one is the first one to qualify for and so on, no? Josh Baumgartner (talk) 21:41, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

@ArthurPSmith: Ok, but it's not clear for competitions item like Premier League (Q9448). No winner there. Xaris333 (talk) 22:28, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

• the fact that 2018–19 UEFA Champions League (Q30032467) is superior to 2018–19 UEFA Europa League (Q30126418) is generally true and is independent of country sports leagues. So I would expect that this relationship is stored on 2018–19 UEFA Champions League (Q30032467) and 2018–19 UEFA Europa League (Q30126418) but not on 2017–18 Premier League (Q28842253). --Pasleim (talk) 00:53, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

How? Xaris333 (talk) 13:24, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

I was thinking something along the same lines - could you use greater than (P5135) perhaps? Or a new property needed? ArthurPSmith (talk) 18:24, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

What about league level above (P2499) and league level below (P2500)? --Pasleim (talk) 19:08, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

No, 2018–19 UEFA Champions League (Q30032467) and 2018–19 UEFA Europa League (Q30126418) don't have such relation. Xaris333 (talk) 20:36, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

•  Comment if you are looking for qualifiers that could express this on qualifies for event (P3085), how about quantity=2 and criterion used=<some descriptive item>?
  --- Jura 09:58, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Not sure what I was thinking. Deleted part of my comment. ranking (P1352) could work. --- Jura 09:39, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
•  Oppose I fail to see how this is qualitatively different from ranking (P1352). Circeus (talk) 03:54, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

@Xaris333, ArthurPSmith, Pasleim, Jura1: It seems that this proposal is abandonned. However, I think it already exists: next lower rank (P3729) & next higher rank (P3730), usually applied in military or awards, however, its definition talk specifically about "ranked sports league". Amadalvarez (talk) 09:21, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

It's not the same thing. The problem still exist, we didn't find a solution. Xaris333 (talk) 15:21, 27 June 2019 (UTC)