Wikidata:Property proposal/pdf page

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file page[edit]

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   Under discussion
Descriptionproperty to indicate a page number of a pdf file or similar. The page number is sometimes different from the numbering of the text reproduced in the document. Should allow to link the page when combined with the file URL.
Data typeQuantity
Allowed valuespositive integers
Allowed unitsnone
Example 1Q75803176#P996 File:Emily Dickinson Poems (1890).djvu → 160
Example 2MISSING
Example 3MISSING
See alsopage(s) (P304)

Motivation[edit]

It seems we lack this. Probably useful mostly on Commons where such files are stored. Please help complete the proposal/add samples/suggest the perfect property label (Add your motivation for this property here.) --- Jura 08:15, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

  • Symbol support vote.svg Support Yes. This is something that would be useful. Jheald (talk) 12:15, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose David (talk) 17:14, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment I don't like that name. We also can use DjVu (Q334677) instead of Portable Document Format (Q42332). What if the support for OpenDocument (Q184473) is added in the future? I will support this property with a name like «page in digital document», or something like that. --Tinker Bell 19:26, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
    • @Tinker Bell: I wouldn't mind changing the label to something different, but "page in digital document" might have the same problem as just using "page": one wont be sure users don't mean the printed page number. If we add "djvu page" as alias, would that be sufficient? --- Jura 12:05, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment What's wrong with page(s) (P304)? Also it is very unclear what the purpose of this is, you haven't given any specific example. ArthurPSmith (talk) 18:17, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
    • @ArthurPSmith, ديفيد عادل وهبة خليل 2: It's very common for a digitised version of a work to have its own sequence numbers for each scan or frame of the digitised work, which is different from the original page number. So for example File:Plan of Dudley Castle (1897).jpg is taken from frame 458 of a particular digital version of The Castles of England (1897). But if we access the source here, we find that the printed page number in the original book was actually page 394. The Internet Archive does its best to identify the original page numbers of book pages it serves; but most other providers do not. Also each digital provider may have a different frame number for the same page, depending on eg how many blank pages at the start of the work they have shot and included in the file. This goes over to modern born-digital documents as well, where the page numbers may only start after the contents and the front matter, but the frames of the pdf are numbered sequentially from 1 for the front cover.
The existing property P304 (https://w.wiki/A8K times out) is typically used either as a reference or a qualifier, so it is not possible to qualify it to indicate whether it refers to a digital frame or a printed page number. So it would be genuinely useful to have this new property. Jheald (talk) 07:49, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
@Jheald: Ok, I see the distinction then, but how would this be applied in a wikidata context? It seems we have three things involved - the item that may be an image such as File:Plan of Dudley Castle (1897).jpg (but that's not an item?), the specific (PDF?) file it came from, which would be related by what property? And then this as a qualifier? ArthurPSmith (talk) 13:30, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
@ArthurPSmith: I would see it used in much the same way as page(s) (P304), but when the reference or the source is an electronic document for which one has a url, where one's metadata might or might not also give a printed page number. So I could see it being used as a qualifier on full work available at (P953) eg for a chapter from a book; similarly described at URL (P973); equally in references, alongside stated in (P248) = item for book etc, reference URL (P854) = url for digital copy, this property to indicate which frame of that digitisation. How to represent sources of images in SDC is still somewhat up in the air, but again one would expect something to identify the containing work, a url where it was available, and then this to indicate which frame of the digitisation. Jheald (talk) 13:50, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment added a sample above. It would probably also be useful for Commons. --- Jura 12:05, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
    • @Hsarrazin: it seems to me that you frequently add such statements. --- Jura 12:09, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
  • No, I do not add such statements. I add links to pdf/djvu files, but the pages statements I add are "page in the book", not "page in the file" info...
  • However, @Jura1:, I think I see what you mean... this could be useful to directly point to the page of a file, when it is not used in wikisource... when using a wikisource file, as reference for a statement, we generally have to use reference URL (P854) and something like "https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Emily_Dickinson_Poems_(1890).djvu/160" - it would be better to be able to link to the page of the file, by giving its name and page...
  • considering the name of the property, I would prefer a name such as "file page", to clearly indicate it is the page of the file, whatever the format (pdf, word, djvu, etc.)...
  • @Hsarrazin: Good idea for the name. I think that should make it fairly clear. --- Jura 14:24, 20 November 2019 (UTC)