Wikidata:Property proposal/Nação (candomblé)

Candomblé nation

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

   Done: Candomblé nation (P9887) (Talk and documentation)

Description	lineage of a terreiro (temple) in Candomblé religion, representing the place of origin or ethnical group of the founders, the dialet used and other liturgy aspects
Represents	Nation (candomblé) (Q10335893)
Data type	Item
Domain	instances of Candomblé terreiro (Q3208559)
Allowed values	instances of Nation (candomblé) (Q10335893)
Example 1	A Casa dos Caboclos (Q104419272) → Candomblé Ketu (Q104439218)
Example 2	Aba Funjá (Q104419273) → Ijexá (Q104439225)
Example 3	Abaça Amazi (Q104419274) → Candomblé Bantu (Q104439226)
Planned use	I'm currently working on uploading over 1.1k items regarding Candomblé terreiros (temples) in Bahia, Brazil. If this proposal is accepted, I'll add this property to all of them.
See also	Wikidata:Property proposal/Regente, Wikidata:Property proposal/Liderança

Motivation

In the context of candomblé, nation distinguishes different segments within the religion. It differs from country of origin (P495) in that it doesn't refer to a geographic location, but rather a culture, or group of people from which that specific practice of candomblé was originated. A candomblé terreiro's (temple) nation is essential to its characterization, as it reflects different dialects and rituals that might take place in said location.  – The preceding unsigned comment was added by VStocco (WMB) (talk • contribs) at 14:11, December 23, 2020‎ (UTC).

Discussion

•  Oppose with those names. The English word nation has a lot to do with nationality and is problematic for the reasons discussed in https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Property_proposal/nationality_(cultural_identity). ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 23:12, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
•  Support I took the liberty of tweaking the labels. NMaia (talk) 02:57, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
  • I think this still needs an explanation of what a candomble nation happens to be in the property description. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 13:25, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
    • @ChristianKl: I've changed the description a bit. Do you think the current one seems better? @NMaia: thank you for the label tweaks! VStocco (WMB) (talk) 14:34, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
      • @ChristianKl: Do you still think this needs more alterations? Personally, I think it is ok, unless you want to explicitly mention Nation (candomblé) (Q10335893) in the description. Good contributions, Ederporto (talk) 21:00, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
        • @ChristianKl: I've updated the description. Is that better? Good contributions, Ederporto (talk) 06:35, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
•  Support The topic that this property touches is very fragile and marginalized. This property, and the others correlated to it are very important to preserve this knowledge. I made few adjustments. Good contributions, Ederporto (talk) 07:26, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
•  Support --Luan (talk) 03:22, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
•  Strong support This is a really helpful proposal. Prburley (talk)
• WikiProject Properties has more than 50 participants and couldn't be pinged. Please post on the WikiProject's talk page instead. Notifying another property creator to see if the property is ok for creation. Good contributions, Ederporto (talk) 06:35, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
•  Strong oppose Same observation : religion or worldview (P140), ethnic group (P172), country (P17), country of citizenship (P27), native language (P103), etc. are sufficient to classify the Items. —Eihel (talk) 09:08, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

  @Eihel: That is not readily obvious. Can you show how you would structure the information in the examples using the existing properties you presented in such a way as to obviate the need for the proposed property? Josh Baumgartner (talk) 09:35, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

  Hello Joshbaumgartner The question is rather why are you not succeeding? Candomblé is a religion. Should we have a property to express it? Then we arrive at drifts like the properties of the images: + property that determines what is Ashkenazi from what Sephardic in Judaism. + property which determines what is Vishnouist of what is Shaivist in Hinduism. + ... I'm sure we're straying a lot from the RDF model. There is still P361 if you want. Cordially. —Eihel (talk) 11:01, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

  Não é suficiente, nem se confunde com essas propriedades listadas. Essa nova propriedade é tão necessária quanto (e equivalente a) Christian liturgical rite (P3501). --Luan (talk) 19:44, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

  Hello Eihel , for example, a "Candomblé nation" is not a religion, so your first suggestion (religion or worldview (P140)) seems prima facie unworkable, and so on. I was hoping for something more constructive than simply 'use X property instead'. Without some explanation or demonstration of how the suggested alternate property could work for the use case in the proposal, it doesn't offer much. Josh Baumgartner (talk) 20:56, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

@Eihel, Luan, Joshbaumgartner:The word "nation" perhaps gets lost in translation here. The qualifiers Eihel presented do not fully represent the concept of nation. Nations aren't different religions, nor necessarily imply different ethnical groups; country and citizenship do not apply here because each one would be Brazil, and as far as the concept goes in this direction, would be which region from Africa the culture of the practioners (and founders) was from. I think, as Luan stated, that this property comes close to what Christian liturgical rite (P3501) does. Good contributions, Ederporto (talk) 04:20, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

 Support with continued refinement of the description to help resolve the confusion around the specific use of the word 'nation' in this context. This is good and valuable work for the database and this property helps more accurately model this data. Refining the name and description are useful to improve usability, but shouldn't stop it from going forward. Josh Baumgartner (talk) 05:18, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

WikiProject Properties has more than 50 participants and couldn't be pinged. Please post on the WikiProject's talk page instead. Can we set the property for creation or closure, please? Good contributions, Ederporto (talk) 20:27, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

•  Support --Pablo Busatto (talk) 00:46, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
•  Support --I support this, provided that the description is edited along these lines: "lineage of a terreiro (temple) in Candomblé religion, representing the place of origin or ethnic group of the founders, the dialect used, and other liturgical aspects." Marcia Tiede ( talk)

@VStocco (WMB), ChristianKl, NMaia, Luan, Prburley: and @Eihel, Joshbaumgartner, Pablo Busatto, MLTiede: Candomblé nation (P9887)  Done. Good contributions, Ederporto (talk) 03:43, 16 September 2021 (UTC)