Wikidata talk:WikiProject Mineralogy/Properties/Archive/2013/11

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Update

Sulfosalts
  • I think that the sulfide groups by Fleischer's Glossary of Mineral Species are wrong, nowadays.
  • I think that we should use the modification by Moëlo, Y et al. (2008).
  • So: tetradymite group (sulfosalt), lillianite group (sulfosalt), tennantite (sulfosalt), stannite (sulfosalt), germanite (sulfosalt). --Chris.urs-o (talk) 06:33, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Others:
  • Note: Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), title 49: transportation.
  • A calculated density property would be nice showing the numbers on mineralienatlas.de, the calculations seem well done here.
  • Nickel-Strunz 9 ed. (updated) is based on mineralienatlas.de and not IMA master list (2009-01).
Regards --Chris.urs-o (talk) 04:41, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Storing the radioactive properties sounds both interesting and challenging. The discussion on the German wiki shows that any value we add, will probably need many qualifiers in order to be intelligible without going through the sources. We should work out a few examples and see how it goes. For example Zircon could have a qualifier that says: "radioactive element substitutions = Th, U"? --Tobias1984 (talk) 11:21, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
We could explain it in the discussion page of the property (see Radioactivity in Minerals). It is easier to add data and source only to the items. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 12:52, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
More thoughts on Zircon
  • radioactivity = ... Bq/g
  • radioactive element = U //the type of decays can be queried from the isotopes of U
  • radioactive element = Th //see above
  • method = calculated // or measured + property sample
  • sample = single crystal

but radioactive elements could also be a property instead of a qualifier. We could have two additional properties: common mineral inclusions (For Zircon e.g. Uraninit) and trace element substitutions (including all elements that are not in the chemical formula). --Tobias1984 (talk) 17:47, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Quote: "Die Aktivität von Uranverbindungen steigt durch Zerfallsprodukte scheinbar um einen Faktor bis 8. Beim Thorianit ist es ein Faktor 39400 zu 3460 also 11."
The problem are the daughter elements of the radioactive decay. Uranium bearing chemical formulas have up to 8 times more radioactivity than from the U isotopes themselves and thorianite up to 11 times. The ideal chemical formula changes after a radioactive decay of 800 mio. years. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 06:40, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

SbisoloBot

I completed a first "test" run with User:SbisoloBot on IMA numbers adding 30 IMA numbers. A bug caused adding a wrong source then I removed it. I want to add the IMA Master list as source with these properties:

  • P357 (title): The New IMA List of Minerals
  • P407 (language): Q1860
  • P577 (date and time): February 2013

It is ok or is better to leave id void and adding it in the future? --Sbisolo (talk) 12:38, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Nice Sbisolo, I was already wondering the addition of the sami wikipedia as source ;) It seems ok for me. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 16:29, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Not so nice... I'm able to add only P357 property, I have some change to ad add P407... Adding P577 requires much more coding. --Sbisolo (talk) 13:52, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Added 2223 IMA numbers. --Sbisolo (talk) 09:36, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
Nice, mission impossible seems possible after all ;) --Chris.urs-o (talk) 10:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
Great job, Sbisolo! What will you import next? You could also just create an item for "The new IMA List of Mineral" and source the statement with "stated in = 'Q????????'". All the other statements about the source would just go once into that item. --Tobias1984 (talk) 14:43, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
I created item Q13651104 for "The new IMA List of Mineral" (february 2013 edition). I also tried to create items for scientific articles and used them as source for chemical formulas. Now I have to write code to manage sources. --Sbisolo (talk) 07:15, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Note: quartz (Wikipedia disambiguation page) had IMA 1967 s.p. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 05:46, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, added missing property in Q43010. --Sbisolo (talk) 08:19, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Some minerals need their english label, User:SbisoloBot could do that. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 02:48, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Can you collect Strunz 8, 9 and Dana next? I think we can add the source of the book. So many check those codes every day, there is really no chance that even one of them is wrong. And we can probably find out with the constraint violations. Crystal system and point group are also good to go. --Tobias1984 (talk) 11:12, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

You probably didn't have any time lately. But now that Chris created the other space group item that property would also be ready too. I think we should add all three properties (crystal system, point group, space group), until all the problems with inheritance and gathering information from other items have been cleared. Deleting the first two from any items will be easy enough to do. --Tobias1984 (talk) 14:10, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Sugilite

sugilite (Q417368) is subclass of milarite mineral group (Q3777751) currently. On Mindat it belongs to the Osumilite Group. Webmineral speaks of the "Milarite - Osumilite group". Do we need to change the label or alias of milarite mineral group (Q3777751)? --Tobias1984 (talk) 12:34, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Mindat.org isn't so good, webmineral.com isn't updating fast enough (note: Fleischer, Mandarino (ROM) and Back (ROM) (Fleischer's Glossary, 2008) are more professional than mindat.org). Stick to rruff.info/ima/ and IMA (CNMNC), mineralienatlas.de is good as well. Fleischer's Glossary (2008) has sugilite as a member of the milarite mineral group. Sbisolo built it.wikipedia based mainly on Fleischer's Glossary (2008) and IMA (CNMNC). The name of the mineral group is the name of the oldest mineral in the group, mostly. Mindat.org and rruff.info/ima/ have different years sometimes, but years can be edited. The alias can be added, I suppose. Webmineral.com is good for 'named after' and radioactivity, mindat.org for locations. Regards --Chris.urs-o (talk) 04:19, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Sounds good. I will just add an alias and leave the label as is. --Tobias1984 (talk) 11:31, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
P.S.: en.wikipedia and mindat.org vs. de.wikipedia and mineralienatlas.de, the problem here I think is that german speaking college education is better than the english speaking one on average. And the proportion of older and experienced editors doing voluntary work on de.wikipedia is higher. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 11:01, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Olivine and olivine group?

We have:

but the second one links to for example the German article about the Olivine-group. Sbisolo can you take a look at that as it is in Italian? --Tobias1984 (talk) 17:52, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

This is complicated. We have olivine solid solution series (forsterite−fayalite) → then olivine group (Fleischer's Glossary) → then olivine structural group (rruff.info/ima/) → then nesosilicates. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 04:15, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
it:Olivina is about forsterite−fayalite series, it:Gruppo dell'olivina is about Fleischer's Glossary olivine group. en:Olivine is about forsterite−fayalite series and olivine group (maybe following Fleischer's Glossary definition). I'm not sure how to modify interlinks. @Chris.urs-o: do you know where rruf.info/ima takes structural group definition? --Sbisolo (talk) 07:56, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
I assumed that rruff.info/ima/ follows CNMNC. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 08:54, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
P.S.: Professor Robert Terrance Downs (rruff) works with Gerald "Jerry" V. Gibbs (Virginia Polytechnic Institute) and with Monte B. Boisen, Jr (University of Idaho). It seems to be based on basic crystallography.
Ref.:
  • Boisen, Jr., Monte B. and G. V. Gibbs (1976) A derivation of the 32 crystallographic point groups using elementary group theory, Amer. Mineralogist, 61, 145-165.
  • Downs, R. T., G. V. Gibbs and M. B. Boisen, Jr. (1991) A study of the mean-square displacement amplitudes of Si, Al, O atoms in framework structures: Evidence for rigid bonds, order, twinning and stacking faults. Amer. Mineralogist, 75,1253-1267.
  • Downs, R.T., G.V. Gibbs, K.L. Bartelmehs and M. B. Boisen, Jr. (1992) Variations of Bond Lengths and Volumes of Silicate Tetrahedra with Temperature. American Mineralogist, 77, 751-757.
  • Gibbs GV, Hill FC, Boisen MB, Downs RT (2000), Power law relationships between bond length, bond strength and electron density distribution, Physics and Chemistry of Minerals, 25, 585-590. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 11:54, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
It must be the structural formula. Olivine structural group has PO4 minerals: ferrisicklerite (Li1-x(Fe,Mn)PO4), heterosite (FePO4), karenwebberite (Na(Fe,Mn)PO4), lithiophilite (LiMnPO4), natrophilite (NaMnPO4), purpurite ((Mn,Fe)PO4), sicklerite (LiMnPO4) and triphylite (LiFePO4). --Chris.urs-o (talk) 09:03, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
P.S., e.g.: a mineral group is a mineral structural group. The rruff.info/ima/ and it.wiki
  • Nadorite mineral group is from: Kampf, Anthony R., Mills Stuard J., Housley Robert M., Marty Joseph, Thorne Brent (2010). Lead-tellurium oxysalts from Otto Mountain near Baker, California: VI. Telluroperite, Pb3TeO4Cl2, the Te analogue of perite and nadorite. American Mineralogist 95: 1569-1573. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 06:25, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Eudialyte mineral group is from: Johnsen, Ole, Ferraris Giovanni, Gault Robert A., Grice Joel D., Kampf Anthony R., Pekov Igor V. et al. (2003) The nomenclature of Eudialyte-group minerals. The Canadian Mineralogist 41: 785-79. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 08:27, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Somehow i think we should add a collapseable section to the infobox that explains the level and way of classification. That would be similar to what the biology and fossil infoboxes have (e.g. en:lion under the infobox header en:Biological_classification). The current infobox for en:olivine just says "Category = Silicate mineral". Would be nice if it said:
  • Nesosilicates
  • Olivine group
  • Olivine solid solution
  • Forsterite
  • Fayalite
Maybe we can lay to ground work for this here? --Tobias1984 (talk) 09:18, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Olivine group is different if you follow Fleischer's glossary or rruff's mineral group (and this is not an exception). There are also mineral groups and supergroups defined by IMA. Which definition is better to follow? --Sbisolo (talk) 09:54, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Rruff.info/ima/ follows CNMNC, there might be some exceptions. Fleischer's Glossary is old (10 ed, 2008), 11 ed is getting late. In some case, rruff.info/ima/ is just updating Fleischer's Glossary (2008). The minerals newer than 'IMA2007' aren't so important. We should follow Fleischer's Glossary and mineral groups and supergroups defined by CNMNC/IMA, at first. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 10:10, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Undated en:olivine's infobox. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 10:14, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Looks good :). --Tobias1984 (talk) 10:19, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

If we create multiple qualifiers we could add to each mineral "subdivison of = XYZ & Qualifier = Strunz", "subdivison of = XY & Qualifier = Fleischr", "subdivison of = XXY & Qualifier = Dana". This would the most versatile solution. The biology classification also has classifications with different taxonomic ranks and different groupings. See: en:Biological_classification. --Tobias1984 (talk) 10:19, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Important are Fleischer's Glossary and mineral groups and supergroups defined by CNMNC/IMA, for a start. Nickel–Strunz and Dana ID's, as well. I don't know the qualifiers by Wikidata. Let's start with the important minerals and their groups. We have a very limited editing capacity anyway. Step by step, keeping cool. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 11:09, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
That is true. It is better we plan everything well before we unleash a bot :). We are anyway still missing a lot of essential properties. And the sourcing capabilities of Wikidata still don't allow proper citing of journals, books and databases. Too bad though that reviewing of property proposals is so slow. --Tobias1984 (talk) 11:26, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
@Sbisolo: you have to remember that there are many crystal structures solved, and there are crystallographers at rruff.info. Crystallographers say that the crystal structure of forsterite, fayalite, chrysoberyl, lithiophilite and triphylite look similar from their point of view. They can read the Jmol 3-D structure applet on mindat.org and they can read the dataset on American Mineralogist Crystal Structure Database (AMCSD). --Chris.urs-o (talk) 16:42, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
P.S.: the rruff.info/ima/, mindat.org, mineralienatlas.de like the CMNMC/IMA just follow peer-reviewed publications, CMNMC/IMA publishes its decisions. The mineral taxonomy isn't a category tree as in biological systematic, the minerals are tagged. The hydrotalcite supergroup isn't just carbonates, the beryllonite mineral group isn't just nesosilicates. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 08:38, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Subscripts

Note: the chemical formula of rathite is a headache (Ag2Pb12-xTlx/2As18+x/2S40). --Chris.urs-o (talk) 15:15, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
My old Windows XP/ Google Chrome PC hasn't fonts that support letters as subscripts ('x', 'n', 'n'), I can't edit some chemical formulas. It'd nice if somebody would edit it.
Complete list
--Chris.urs-o (talk) 05:20, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Although I have a newer installment of Windows, I can't input the e.g. 'x' either. I see it here, but it doesn't display right in the input box, and it doesn't allow me to press save. --Tobias1984 (talk) 09:01, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Try the 'x' of nickelskutterudite, Sbisolo edited this one. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 12:47, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
That x is really small but it works. --Tobias1984 (talk) 13:21, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
;-) --Chris.urs-o (talk) 15:46, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Keatite

Do we have an item for keatite (Q15253360), where we can add en:Keatite? --Tobias1984 (talk) 06:17, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

It is unnamed, the synthetic compound is called 'keatite'. Regards --Chris.urs-o (talk) 06:49, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
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