User talk:Thoken

Combined WTA/ATP tennis tournaments

Hello Thoken,

Here you merged two Q-nodes into one which should have remained separate. Coupling the women's singles with the full WTA tournament is no longer done (since december 2012).

The structure of a combined WTA/ATP tennis tournament is as follows:

• the combined tournament consists of the men's tournament and the women's tournament
• each of these consists of a singles tournament and a doubles tournament

Properties should be attached to the appropriate level.

Language articles are to be attached to the Q-node where they belong. In this respect we find that the languages wiki's tend to fall apart into two categories:

• E-type (English, Italian, Spanish, Russian, ...) possessing one article on the 'combined tournament level' and detailed articles for men/singles, men/doubles, women/singles, women/doubles.
• D-type (Dutch, Deutsch, French, Polish, ...) possessing one article for the women's tournament and one article for the men's tournament. Recently some D-type countries started to add a small 'umbrella' article to ease navigation to the E-type countries (vice versa). The Germans have done most of that work already; the Dutch are underway and the Polish have just started.

This implies that some of the seven Q-nodes will not contain articles in your language. Still it would be useful to specify a title for such nodes in your language. Such titles will clarify the navigation through the Q-node structure.

Hopefully you are willing to co-operate in maintaining this structure.

Kind regards, Vinkje83 (talk) 09:40, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for being so kind trying to give me the explanation, but I don't get it at all, I'm sorry.

1. The merge was about WTA tournaments only, not ATP.
2. "D-type" does not exist the way you describe it, Deutsch and French have both women/singles and women/doubles.
3. Decisive for selecting Q-node pointers to articles should be neither structure nor title but content of articles.

Could you point me to rules, decisions, or discussions your arguing is based upon?

Could you please also point me to an example of such an 'umbrella' article you mention? --Thoken (talk) 16:21, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Let me use 'Acapulco 2014' as an example: Q15732344.

• On this (top) level, wiki's like the English and the Italian are among the traditionally typical ones to have an article covering the combined tournament. They tend not to have articles for the WTA component or ATP component separately.
• On the next level (Q15781322), wiki's like the Germans and the French have an article covering the WTA tournament (singles and doubles). The same for ATP. These wiki's tend not to have separate articles for singles and doubles.
• On the lowest level (Q15818147), one usually finds the top level wiki's again, such as the English and the Spanish with (usually four) articles on women's singles, women's doubles, men's singles and men's doubles.

This difference between E-type countries (top level and lowest level) and D-type countries (middle level) is very unfortunate, but has 'always' been this way and is impossible to change (I think). Before the existence of wikidata, we had no better way to interlink than equating the women's singles of E-type with the full women's tournament of D-type. The same should have happened on the ATP side, but (very unfairly) the D-type full men's tournament had the habit of 'stealing' the full combined tournament of the E-type, suggesting that the men were more important than the women.

(Note: the French are not really consistent as D-type. There are also some tournaments which they have structured like E-type.)

When the interwikilinks were moved over to wikidata, I knew (in the first period) no better than to continue the old practice of equating D-type full tournament with E-type singles tournament. Until I was corrected by wiki official Stryn.

Since then, possibilities have been introduced (has part(s) (P527) and part of (P361)) to create click-through connections between the levels, and therefore offer a path of travel between E-type and D-type wiki's.

In order to further facilitate travel between wiki types, some D-type wiki's (traditionally not represented on the top level) additionally created top level articles (which I call 'umbrella articles') giving a direct link to the top level articles of the E-type.

• Example on de-wiki: de:Abierto Mexicano Telcel 2014
• Example on nl-wiki: nl:Tennistoernooi van Acapulco 2014

I remember having seen one or two of those emerging on pl-wiki as well, but right now I have not been able to find them back.

Hopefully this answers your questions. And please be aware of the content criterion: an article describing a women's tournament (including singles and doubles) is not to be equated to an article describing just the women's singles component. (The same for the men, of course.) Kind regards, Vinkje83 (talk) 21:04, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for the inconveniance, you're absolutely right, I missed it badly. And thanks for your patience.

It's sad not to be able to change languages easily in those situations so far. Umbrella articles are a bad idea to overcome this, I guess. I'd rather prefer to have a (configurable?) lookup done via "has part(s) (P527)"/"part of (P361)" for to have missing interwikilinks added in Wikipedia articles as "similar".

But checking this, I find: 2014 Sony Open Tennis (women) gives as "has part(s) (P527)": Q15930129 2014 Sony Open Tennis – Women's Singles which unfortunately has empty sitelinks-wikipedia section, missing sitelinks are in Q15956781 2014 Sony Open Tennis – Women's Singles. Isn't there something wrong? --Thoken (talk) 20:12, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes! Indeed!! The English and the Spanish people did not hook in their (recently created) article with the existing Q-node, but created a new one. Thanks for pointing that out to me. A straightforward merge corrected that. Greetz, Vinkje83 (talk) 22:37, 17 March 2014 (UTC)