Talk:Q9592

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Roman Catholic Church ≠ Catholic Church[edit]

This item is about the Roman Catholic Church, one of 23 catholic churches.

Catholic Church, community consisting of the Roman Catholic Church and 22 eastern catholic churches, has another item - https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q15924454.

Šárka Praha (talk) 21:42, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Structure of the Catholic Church

No. The Catholic Church and what some people call Roman Catholic Church are the same thing. What you are confusing with the Roman Catholic Church is actually the Latin Church or Western Church (see en:Latin Church). The Catholic Church is composed by the Latin Church and 23 Eastern Catholic Churches. --Grabado (talk) 09:25, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Roman Catholic Church = Catholic Church[edit]

I´m completely disagree with the idea that "Roman Catholic Church" is a part of "Catholic Church". The word "Roman" was added in order to hightlight the unitary and leading dimension of the Church of Rome over all Catholic Churches. A more detailed explanation is available in Italian Wikipedia: Use of the denomination Roman. In addition to this, in Latina Wikipedia is shown a division of Roman Catholic Church in the 23 particular Churches taken from the "Annuario Pontificio 2008": Division of the Roman Catholic Church according to the different Rites.

It seems to be a fact that in eastern Europe countries the idea of Roman Catholic Church is associated with the Latin Rite. I think it´s a point that must be remarkable but not so far to change the idea. It´s a fact too that in Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian, Catalan and Galician wikipedias the term Roman Catholic Church redirects to Catholic Church as a logical consecuence of both concepts being synnonymous (in Latina Wikipedia the redirection is in the inverse way, from Catholic Church to Roman Catholic Church). Taking in account that Latin, or Roman, Rite is vastly mayority in Catholic Church, and countries where this rite is used make no difference between Roman Catholic Church and Catholic Church, I think the page Q15924454 (Catholic Church) duplicates this one and it´s redundant. For the specific Latin Rite we have Q597526 (Latin Church) or Q2725872 (Latin Rite)

Taking in account this considerations, I´ve just removed the galician wikipedia page Igrexa Católica from Q15924454 and added to this Q9592 page. --Xosé Antonio (talk) 23:36, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I totally agree with you. Nowadays there are 25 sui iuris churches: the new Eritrean Catholic Church was stablished in 2015 [1] --09:51, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

3 Wikidata items for only 2 topics[edit]

I think Catholic Church (Q9592), Latin Church (Q597526), and Q15924454 are 3 pages that apply to only 2 topics. The 2 topics are:

  1. The "whole Catholic Church" that answers to the pope (Q19546).
  2. The "Latin Church" or "Western Church" that forms the majority of #1: or to put it another way, the autonomous church that is not one of the Eastern Catholic Church (Q49376).

It appears that the "Roman Catholic Church" phrase has the same problem in other languages as in English: Some people use the phrase for #1, some people use the phrase for #2, some people use the phrase for either depending on context, and some people don't know there's a difference.

Wikipedia articles linked to each term, as of 2014-06-12:

item articles
Q9592 99
Q597526 17
Q15924454 37

Since Q15924454 was only created in March 2014, this seems odd: a lot of the articles linked to Q15924454 must have been on another Wikidata item before.

Here's a list of Wikipedias that have links for 2 of the items at the same time as of 2014-06-12. I did this manually, so I hope I didn't put any in the wrong column:

wiki Q9592 Q597526 Q15924454
alswiki Römisch-katholische Kirche Lateinische Kirche
cswiki Římskokatolická církev Církve sjednocené s Římem
dewiki Römisch-katholische Kirche Lateinische Kirche
enwiki Latin Church Catholic Church
eowiki Katolika Latina Eklezio Katolika Eklezio
eswiki Iglesia católica Iglesia latina
fawiki کلیسای کاتولیک کلیسای لاتین
frwiki Église catholique Église latine
glwiki Igrexa Católica Igrexa Católica Latina
huwiki Római katolikus egyház Latin rítusú katolikus egyház
itwiki Chiesa latina Chiesa cattolica
lawiki Ecclesia Catholica Romana Ecclesia Latina
nlwiki Rooms-katholieke Kerk Latijnse Kerk
nnwiki Den romersk-katolske kyrkja Den katolske kyrkja
plwiki Kościół łaciński Kościół katolicki
ptwiki Igreja Católica Igreja Católica de Rito Latino
rowiki Biserica Romano-Catolică Biserica Catolică
ruwiki Римско-католическая церковь Латинский обряд
skwiki Latinská cirkev Katolícka cirkev (latinská cirkev a východné katolícke cirkvi)
svwiki Romersk-katolska kyrkan Latinska kyrkan
swwiki Kanisa Katoliki Kanisa la Kilatini
ukwiki Римо-католицька церква Латинський обряд
warwiki Singbahan Katoliko Romano Singbahan Latina
zhwiki 天主教會 拉丁禮教會

Three observations about this list:

  • No language has all 3 articles.
  • enwiki's Q9592 is because of me; I moved it from Q597526, which is what started me thinking about this topic.
  • ptwiki's links seem to just be backwards somehow.

Does everyone agree that these 3 Wikidata items are split among only 2 topics? If so, we can move on to trying to determine which articles are for which one. (We might end up some some articles that don't acknowledge a distinction, but we can worry about that when we come to it.) --Closeapple (talk) 06:20, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

It appears this might be from some confusion about Q9592 being split in March 2014 without the user knowing that Q597526 existed also: see User talk:Šárka Praha#Why are you separated Roman Catholic Church from Catholic Church? --Closeapple (talk) 07:02, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Hi Closeapple, your observation about no language has all 3 articles is very significant. It means there aren't three articles. Your explanation about the phrase Roman Catholic Church focuses the problem. In my opinion Q15924454 must be deleted because Roman Catholic Church and Catholic Church are synnonimous for nearly the whole christians. By the way, I think you're wrong putting en:Latin Church in Q9592 (it might be in Q597526) and en:Roman Catholic Church must be in Q9592. That's the way they were before march. --Xosé Antonio (talk) 08:12, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I also think en:Latin Church should be moved back to Q597526. I'll do that now. --Closeapple (talk) 10:35, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

OK, it's been about a week. I see that Xosé Antonio (talkcontribslogs) agrees that there are only 2 items. Šárka Praha (talkcontribslogs) was told at User talk:Šárka Praha#3 Wikidata items for only 2 topics but has not yet replied. (That user might be busy or something, though.) And a few hours ago, Foffo 93 (talkcontribslogs) already moved most Wikipedia pages from Q15924454 back to Q9592.

I think it's now mostly clarified that Q9592 is the whole Catholic Church, and Q597526 is the Latin/Western part of the Catholic Church, and Q15924454 is probably an extraneous Wikidata item. I am now going to move the phrases like "one of the 22 Catholic churches", in each language, from Q9592 to Q597526, and check some of the "authority control" statements to make sure they match the proper item. Discussing the labels will be a different problem. --Closeapple (talk) 20:51, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm slowly working through the language labels, starting with the ones where Q15924454 already has a description I can modify. I've run across one language with 3 articles:

I'm down to the letter "m" and no other 3-article items yet. --Closeapple (talk) 07:35, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Catholic church ≠ roman catholic church[edit]

@ValterVB: Your Italian description is not accurate: catholic church is a community of several church so your description should be "Chiese" and not "Chiesa". The catholic church is composed of the roman catholic church and of 22 others eastern churches. Snipre (talk) 20:47, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


« Chiesa cristiana che riconosce il primato di autorità al vescovo di Roma » )in French : « Église chrétienne qui reconnaît la primauté de l'autorité de l'évêque de Rome » — His Italian description is accurate. Words have meaning, and the meaning of Church is well known in the last 2000 years. We don't have to reset what is a church, this is the accurate word.
FYR, this comes from Jesus: «Tu es heureux, Simon, fils de Jean, car ni la chair ni le sang ne t’ont révélé ceci, mais mon Père qui est dans les Cieux. Aussi moi je te dis que tu es Pierre, et sur cette pierre je bâtirai mon Église, et les portes de l’enfer ne prévaudront point contre elle. (Jésus, Évangile selon saint Matthieu, Mt 16, 13-19)
genium ⟨✉⟩ 13:43, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
@Genium: So can you explain why the Vatican uses the term church about its relations with the eastern catholic churches ? So how several entities defined as church can form a church ? The problem here is not about how the catholic church consider itself but only a description problem. If you take the time to look at the statements in this item you can see that Catholic church is defined as subclass of Christian Church (Q34651) and not as instance of Christian Church (Q34651). And by the way your interpretation that the term church in the Bible is describing the catholic church is a non neutral point of view: orthodox church will have another point of view. I don't want to discuss about what is the truth, I just want to have a neutral description which is clear for everyone even those which are not catholic. And if you know a little about catholic church you should know that the church is not used only to describe organization but all believers, alive or dead: Eglise militant, Eglise triomphante et Eglise souffrante. So even your modified description is not correct to describe what you want to represent. Snipre (talk) 14:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
@Snipre: "So how several entities defined as church can form a church?" Because there are different "stages" of "church". The Catholic Church is a church composed by 24 churches (autonomous particular churches) and each of these churches is also composed by churches (local particular churches). See en:Catholic particular churches and liturgical rites. All of them are churches but not the same kind of church.
That's why I think the Catholic Church shouldn't be defined as subclass of Q34651 but as instance of it. --Grabado (talk) 08:00, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
@Grabado: My comment is not more valid because in between we created Latin Church (Q597526) in order to get ride of the language problem roman catholic or only catholic. So what was in my comment the roman catholic church is now defined as Latin Church (Q597526). Snipre (talk) 15:42, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

marriageable age (P3000)?[edit]

Can marriageable age (P3000) be added? --Yeerge (talk) 11:00, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

@Yeerge: I'm not sure. The code of canon law says that "a man before he has completed his sixteenth year of age and a woman before she has completed her fourteenth year of age cannot enter into a valid marriage" BUT also that "the conference of bishops is free to establish a higher age for the licit celebration of marriage". [2] The last thing means that each country could have a different year.
Furthermore, the Code of Canon Law is only valid in Q597526. I don't know if the Eastern Catholic Churches have different marriageable ages. --Grabado (talk) 09:58, 2 May 2017 (UTC)