Topic on User talk:Wostr/Structured Discussions Archive 1

Can you explain further? Your edit summary to https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q57055&oldid=prev&diff=1981715362, was this property is not designed for this type of data, please read the documentation first or propose other uses of this property on the discussion page.

As noted Wikidata:Project chat#Basic question. How do I mark that a drug has a en:boxed warning?, I have read the documentation and am seeking input. If the data doesn't belong in the way I've added it, explain or better yet show me how it should be added, please. (Or are you trying to keep the info from being added at all?)

klasyfikacja i oznakowanie substancji niebezpiecznych (P4952) was created and designed only for chemical hazard classification and labelling, not for any medicine-related info. It has quite uncommon structure with a legal act as a main value and classification/labelling information added as qualifiers. Therefore, it has several constraints added (both simple constraints on the property page and complex constraints on the discussion page) which do not allow any other use of this property.

The second problem here is that Wikidata is not a Wikipedia article, you cannot add data in some random way, because WD data is not designed to be read by human like an encyclopedic article. The data model must be designed in such a way that the data can then be re-used automatically, using various methods. You add this information in one way, someone else in another, and the person who wants to re-use this data will not know how to get it from WD or won't even know that such information is here. On the other hand, using the wrong property will result in re-users importing data from WD they should not receive at all and that they do not expect to be there. And no one will manually review the results of such an import, where the number may amount to millions of imported items.

You should ask here first. Maybe there is a property that can be used for this kind of information (there are properties for legal status of pharmaceutical products like status prawny produktu leczniczego (P3493), but I'm not familiar with all medicine-related properties), maybe it was proposed earlier but was not accepted, maybe this kind of data would be better modelled in a qualifier, not a stand-alone property. That should be determined in a discussion and I think that WikiProject Medicine is the best place to ask.

Thanks. I don't feel closer to accomplishing this task.

How do I mark that a drug has a en:boxed warning? Are you willing to show me how to do it right? It sounds like you aren't.

You can see I am not trying to add data in a random way, so your second paragraph is thus strange, as it states what I think what I pointed you to shows I know, with only negative, not positive, guidance.

You are telling me not to add it the way I did. Q879952 exists. How do I connect it to Q57055, if not with P4952? (I don't want to spend a ton of time learning confusing stuff I'll never use again . I just want to add the information with as little hassle as possible. I have read WD documentation, for hours, to no avail. Perhaps the wrong documentation.) Frustrated. It feels like you you are unwilling to show me how to do it right, only how I'm doing it wrong. I'm not saying you aren't, but that's what it feels like. Wikidata:Database reports/Constraint violations/P4952#Scope shows many violations. Why single my edit out?

You are saying I'm not allowed to add this data until another property is created, right? But I'm not allowed to create a property, right?

You say I should ask here first. But it seems often no one is answering questions at Wikidata talk:WikiProject Medicine about drugs. viz:

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Drug_categories

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Drug_interactions_(P769)

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#The_appearance_/physical_attributes/_of_drugs

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Drug_Indications

etc, etc. And I see you are helping with drugs on WD.

I don't understand what you are saying I should ask. You're saying Property:P4952 can't be used for what I used it for? If the constraints were rigid, then why didn't they prevent it? If not, why can't I expand them?

You say "Maybe there is a property that can be used for this kind of information (there are properties for legal status of pharmaceutical products like legal status (medicine) (P3493), but I'm not familiar with all medicine-related properties)" So are you saying I need to ask there if there is a property that can be used for this kind of information?

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Database_reports/Constraint_violations/P4952 shows that Q7865437 is being used four times, even though it's not one of the Allowed values.  Why should we not just add it - Q7865437 - and Q879952 to P4952 as allowed values? Is that what you were suggesting when you wrote, "propose other uses of this property on the discussion page" ? If that's not an OK way to add it, how do we know what is or is not an ok way to add it?

For some reason your P links above are in a foreign language - Polish? This talk page is very constraining. I can't see what is wrong.

It's a lot of questions, I'll try to answer them, but it won't be short.

1. I can't show you how to do it, because there is no valid way to do this that I know of. Wikidata is not about adding a sentence with the only problem being in which sections such sentence should be added. Wikidata is a structured data system, every piece of information has (or at least should have) a proper place.

2. For me, as a Wikidata editor, your edit seems very random. It's not uncommon here, 'add some information to a property that seems to be related to the one I'm looking for'.

3. You're asking the wrong question here 'how to add this information?'. The right question in Wikidata is: 'hot to add this information so that others could re-use it?'. If you add some information just for the sake of adding it, in a way that no one knows or expects, that information will be worthless in Wikidata. So, don't get me wrong, because this is not aimed at you personally and I will try to help you as best as I can, but Wikidata is much more complex than the rest of Wikimedia projects and it is required to learn the basics, which can take days or weeks.

4. Property constraints in Wikidata are not designed to prevent from editing. They display specific warnings and are used to maintain data consistency. We have a total of millions of constraint violations in over 10,000 properties and people work hard to manually check these violations and correct them. So no, I'm not going to allow another one, because you want to add one piece of information in one item.

5. You are free to propose a property (Wikidata:Property proposal), but without knowing the basics the chances of creating a property are low. That's why I suggested you should ask on the wikiproject discussion page.

6. With the data model adopted for P4952 property, I do not see any possibility of including this type of information in it. It would be more likely to include this kind of info as a qualifier for Property:P3493 (maybe like paracetamol (Q57055)status prawny produktu leczniczego (P3493)FDA-approved (Q111972129)charakterystyczna cecha (P1552)boxed warning (Q879952)), since this information is US-centric and related to the FDA drug approval process. Maybe it should be added via Property:P1552 property, not as a qualifier. But I don't know which way would be the best. I don't even know if this kind of information should be added to item like Q57055 or items about specific pharmaceutical products like Q3245302 or maybe as a qualifier to an item listed in Property:P3780 (like paracetamol (Q57055)substancja aktywna w (P3780)Tylenol (Q3245302)charakterystyczna cecha (P1552)boxed warning (Q879952), because in Wikidata it is not that simple, sometimes information described in one Wikipedia article is split between several (or even hundreds in some cases) Wikidata items (e.g. brand names of pharmaceutical products which are in Wikipedia article about the active substance do not belong to the item describing the active substance, every pharmaceutical product should have its own item in Wikidata). The first example with a qualifier for P3493 would be my proposal of how it could be done, but I don't know how it fits in the medicine-related properties data model. That's why I wrote: ask in the Wikiproject Medicine.

7. I don't know why Template:P shows you the Polish labels (maybe because you don't have any language info on your user page), it should show the labels in your language. I stopped using this template in this thread, just plain links now.

Re. 1,2,3,4: It looks like I should have more prominently directed you to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Black_box_warnings_project where you can see what I'm up to, and that there's support for what I'm trying to do. Please take a look. You certainly wouldn't have written "you want to add one piece of information in one item" if you had looked at it, as it's clear that's not what I'm trying to do.

The scale of this supports what I wrote: you should understand the basics of Wikidata, then discuss the whole project of yours in Wikidata. This is even more important in this situation because incorrect import of such a large amount of data may result in a lot of work going to waste and having to be corrected.

Any support in en.wiki has no impact on Wikidata as it is an independent project. Discuss your project in Wikiproject Medicine. I think you will find support for it here too. But before taking any action, you need to work out a solution on HOW to best do it.