Topic on User talk:Sannita

Ciao Sannita! Puoi mergere Q3697110 e Q7762436?

Fatto. :)

Hello, I am not sure, if this merge was great idea: It seems, that there are some concepts of "bullae" (in german and maybe some other languages, it is seal made of metal, in english and italian (?) it includes even clay), but at least Q3697110 is some kind of specialised clay seal. Maybe, there could be some discussion, wheter or not Q7762436 is one concept or more (seal made of "clay and metal", or seal made of "metal").

Hello Marv1N, the merge was imho correct, but there are some issues: first, by saying "bulla" one can mean either the tool you use to impress the seal or the impressed seal.

A "bulla" can be of clay, or rather, the first bullae (in the Ancient Near East) were of clay.

The same article w:de:Bulle (Siegel) reads "eine Blase, z. B. eine Lehmkugel mit Siegelabdrücken" (a clay ball with seal impressions). Unfortunately, the German article overlooks completely the clay seals of Ancient Near East.

Much of the English article (w:en:Bulla (seal)) is dedicated to the clay seals of Ancient Near East and just a section is about "Metal bullae and later usage". The article reads: "The term bulla was eventually applied to seals made out of metal". I suspect that the term bulla was originally used to mean the metal seals of the Middle Age (and the same letters issued and sealed, like the Papal bulls) and only later applied to the Sumerian bullae.

The term "cretula" applies only to the ancient bullae, but the two terms are partially synonyms, as you can verify here (Treccani, Italian encyclopedia).

But even in Treccani, we have defined Bolla as metal seal (sigillo di metallo). Yes, there is "historical" and "etymoligical" connection between ancient clay seals and metal seals. But, in german modern term "Bulla" does not includes clay seals (so, this phenomenon You described as "unfortunate" is done on purpose).

In terms of Wikidata: Q3697110 is very specific type of "Ancient Near East clay seal", still I don't see any reason to merge it.

"Larger" issue is maybe Q7762436, which can eventually lead to dividing into two or more concepts = "metal seal" (de:Bulle (Siegel) or as You mentioned in Trccani) and "metal and clay seal" (en:Bulla (seal)). But at this moment, we are not sure about the connection between this two concepts (is it kind of "broadening", which sooner or later affects German and Treccani definition?).

But it is definitely not easy task, to evaluete.

The only difference I could spot between bulla and cretula is about the way each was applied to the object. The bulla had a hole to put a lace in and this lace was the same used to secure the piece of cloth or hide used to close the vessel, while the cretula was pressed and placed directly on the lid of the container or on the doorjamb. Still, the basic function was the same: to seal and certify a content.

Sorry, I hadn't read your post before writing my last.

I found this: "Cretula is the term currently proposed by E. Fiandra and M. Frangipane to name what has variously been called a "clay-sealing" or "bulla" by different authors" (from Romina Laurito et al., Arslantepe, Malatya (Turkey): Textiles, Tools and Imprints of Fabrics from the 4th to the 2nd Millennium BCE, Paléorient Vol. 35, No. 1, 2009, https://www-jstor-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/stable/41496959, p. 9, n. 14).

Dear Marv1N, the situation of the different interlinks is like this:

• enW article is about the "inscribed clay or soft metal (such as lead or tin) or bitumen or wax token used in commercial and legal documentation as a form of authentication and for tamper-proofing whatever is attached to it (or, in the historical form, contained in it)";
• esW article is about "una especie de esfera de arcilla que contiene en su interior diferentes representaciones icónicas de animales" (=a sort of clay sphere that contains different iconic representations of animals), so the same as enW.
• frW article is about "une sphère d'argile creuse dans laquelle on insérait des calculi et sur laquelle on comptabilisait le contenu" (=a hollow clay sphere into which calculi were inserted and on which the content was recorded).

Now, the author of the Treccani article "BOLLA" is the French historian w:en:Robert-Henri Bautier, who wrote Le cheminement du sceau et de la bulle, des origines mésopotamiennes au XIIIe s. occidental (Revue française d'héraldique et de sigillographie), presented here. The same title attests that we have a single general theme (that could be obviously treated in different wp articles), that goes from 4th millennium BC to the Middle Age. The medieval bulla is flat (like this), while the Sumerian bulla is a sphere.

The italian article "w:it:Cretula" is about the Sumerian bullae, same as wp editions in French, English and Spanish. The English article understandably refers also to medieval forms of bullae as "later usage". If the German article is about something different (more specific), how do you refer to these Sumerian objects? In any case, maybe it is the case to put the German article (not the Italian) out of the correspondence in Q7762436 ("bulla").

Sorry for late respond. It seems like interesting and broad thema - from point of view of Wikidata, one can say "quite a mess" as well.

As I get it: There is some precise definition of academic branch sigillography (Q379838): "metal seal (used mostly in the Middle Ages)". Even sigillographers admit, that term itself (Bullae, Bulla) was adapted from older expression used for older clay "proof of authenticity" (? - mostly Ancient artefacts). I think, that this "clay bulla" should be defined by archaelogists (?) and I have only little familiartiy with archaeologist literature and practice. It is possible to write 1 article on Wikipedia about both terms (as someone tried on english WP), but on Wikidata, it seems, that we could have two items (at least).

It is right observation, that there is something wrong with connection between french article (clearly clay bulla) and german (clearly metal bulla). Nowadays, we have in one item merge up to 4 concepts (there are some overlaps):

• "lead bulla" bg, ru (=Q111661092)
• "metal bulla" cs, de, et, hr?, hu, lt, no, sr
• "clay bulla" es, fr, fa (not sure)
• rest of languages (en, fi, he) has wide definition (something like seal of clay or metal...)

One the other hand, we have some difficulties with distinguishing between seal and type of document sealed by this seal. As I mentioned, we have item for lead bulla, but for example Q198721 is for golden bulla-type of document.

At least, we can separate languages of articles to Q111661092 (lead), Q7762436 (metal and rest?), Q3697110 (clay?)

It is better to add in discusion, that there could be some difference between "clay bullla" and cretula (https://dspace.cuni.cz/bitstream/handle/20.500.11956/95293/120289361.pdf - it is master's thesis, author add some important information on pp 10-11). So, maybe we need item for cretula, clay bulla and metal bulla.

Thanks Marv1N. On it.wiki (this thread: w:it:Discussioni progetto:Storia antica#Bullae et cretulae) we are thinking about the possibility of creating an article to be called w:it:Bulla (sfragistica), corresponding to Q7762436 ("bulla") and then link this to other "sub-articles" such as w:it:Cretula, w:it:Bolla (documento imperiale) and w:it:Bolla pontificia.