Talk:Q2715082

animal or animal type

@Sambo97: I know that there is this rule that an entity should not be an instance and a subclass of the same class. But see this as one of the rare exceptions of the rule: There is this class list of Middle-earth animals (Q33125419) which corresponds to wikipedia articles/lists (list of Middle-earth animals (Q2700354) and Category:Middle-earth animals (Q7791188)) which include both individuals and classes (species)). This class has both classes and individuals as its instances. And every middle-earth animal type (like this one) is a subclass of middle-earth animal. So of course they are both an instance and a subclass of list of Middle-earth animals (Q33125419).

Of course you can question the usefulness of list of Middle-earth animals (Q33125419) (I admit that it exists mainly for "historical" reasons), but as long as this class exists in this way the statements remain true.

By the way: the same applies to Mario franchise enemy (Q33095807): both Koopa Troopa (Q2291541) (as a species) and all its instances (like Bowser (Q845864)) are enemies in the Super Mario Franchise. I just could add P31 Mario franchise enemy (Q33095807) to every instance of Koopa Troopa (Q2291541) - but this is the same as just adding P279 Mario franchise enemy (Q33095807) to the class. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 09:19, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi @Valentina.Anitnelav: -- so with Mearas (from Wikipedia, Middle-earth animals): “They descend from Felaróf, who was tamed by the first King of Rohan, Eorl the Young, and perhaps ultimately from Nahar, horse of the Vala Oromë. Ever since, they have been the mounts of the King and Princes of Rohan alone. During the War of the Ring, however, Gandalf the White’s friendship with Shadowfax, lord of the Mearas, led to Shadowfax allowing Gandalf to ride him into the very end of the Third Age. King Théoden’s mount, Snowmane, was also one of the Mearas.”

Since Snowmane is a Meara with a Proper Name label and therefore an individual, then it cannot be the case that the concept of Maeras be an individual.

Again, here: See the Wikipedia entry for “Werewolf (Middle Earth),” in particular the following passage: “The first werewolf was Draugluin, and the greatest wolf was Carcharoth, the guardian of Angband, a descendant of Draugluin as all other werewolves were.”

Since the Tolkien canon includes named individual werewolves, the concept of Werewolf itself cannot also be an individual.

Also the definition of the WD property P31 is: “instance of: that class of which this subject is a particular example and member. (Subject typically an individual member with Proper Name label.)”

For this reason, the correct claim should be subclass of Middle-earth animal or animal type.

Please have a look at the concept of a metaclass: metaclass (Q19478619). In Wikidata it is allowed for a class to be also the instance of something (an instance of a metaclass). Meara and Werewolfs are classes of individuals. But in the same time they are an instance of <animal type>. bicycle (Q11442) exhibits the same characteristics. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 10:02, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Hello @Valentina.Anitnelav: --

While it is in fact true that the that a first-order class may be an instance of a second-order metaclass, what you are doing here is asserting that a group of entities, i.e., Meara, is both an instance of, and a subclass of the same metaclass.

By saying this: “In Wikidata it is allowed for a class to be also the instance of something (an instance of a metaclass).”

– you are claiming that Meara and Werewolf are instances of middle-earth animal or animal type.

Whereas here you say this: “Meara and Werewolfs are classes of individuals”

– you are claiming that Meara and Werewolf are subclasses of middle-earth animal or animal type.

A class cannot be both a subclass and instance of the same metaclass.

Generally it is true that something cannot be both an instance and a subclass of the same class (see my text at the beginning), but not in this case:

Something is a member of list of Middle-earth animals (Q33125419) if it is 1) a Middle-earth animal OR 2) a Middle-earth animal type. list of Middle-earth animals (Q33125419) is the union of the class <Middle-earth animal> and the class <Middle-earth animal type>.

Meara is a Middle-earth animal type (and thus an instance of the class <Middle-earth animal or animal type>).

All instances of Meara are Middle-earth animals and thus an instance of <Middle-earth animal or animal type>. As all instances of Meara are instances of <Middle-earth animal or animal type>, Meara is also a subclass of <Middle-earth animal or animal type>.

As already written above: list of Middle-earth animals (Q33125419) is not a very nice class (and probably less useful than other classes), but as long as it exists in this way it is a class whose instances may also be its subclasses. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 11:15, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

I merged the item list of Middle-earth animals (Q33125419) into list of Middle-earth animals (Q2700354), so this obviously confusing class does not exist anymore. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 21:50, 3 January 2018 (UTC)