Talk:Q15494038
Autodescription — Esperanto organization (Q15494038)
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Removed some claims[edit]
@ThomasPusch: I just removed some claims, including two you added. An Esperanto organization
- does not need to have an official language
- isn't necessarily educational, could also be political, cultural...
If it is a subclassOf organization, which it is since the second edit, which was made 2013-12-31, it cannot be instanceOf organization. CV213 (talk) 20:34, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
@CV213: It's important to define what an Esperanto organization is. In my opinion, an organisation which does not have Esperanto as its official language, is not to be called "Esperanto organisation". Of course, it can have a second or third official language, like Q2867840 (Esperanto-Asocio de Irlando · Cumann Esperanto na hÉireann) has Esperanto, english and irish as official languages, though in Wikidata that has not yet been documentated (but in the languages of the official website it can be seen). But Esperanto has always to be one of the official languages, otherwise it's another type of organisation / society / club. Second idea is similar: Every Esperanto organization I know is necessarily educational, and it can be additionally also be political, cultural or support a sport or lifestyle (such as cycling, yoga, chess, go, veganism or similar) - but necessarily it is also and primarily educational. That Q15494038 is more of a subclassOf organization than to be a instanceOf organization, is right - the differences between subclassOf and instanceOf were undoubtedly still not clear to most users in 2013, and even now there can be confucions, if one is not very concentrated clicking anything in wikidata - so such errors will still occur.
So, i'd say that every Esperanto organization to be called so "has to have at least one official language", and one of them to my understanding has to be Esperanto, and I think that every Esperanto organization is by definition educational, but may have additional further purposes. Or do you know Esperanto organisations which do not have Esperanto es one of their official languages or are not educational? ... Than the question is whether to weaken the criterias or to remove the tag "Esperanto organization" of that questionable organization. But anyway: I can't think of any example. ThomasPusch (talk) 22:50, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- But where is the proof? I can found an organization with some of my friends
- which doesn't have an official language where we collect data about Esperanto
- which has English as sole official language where we educate other people in Esperanto
- where members sing Esperanto songs they know already - not educational - but with the aim to not forget them.
- Why would these not be Esperanto organizations? CV213 (talk) 23:02, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
@CV213: I repeat: an organisation which does not have Esperanto as its official language, is not to be called "Esperanto organisation". If you found an organization hich doesn't have an official language where we collect data about Esperanto , it's a linguistic club or a conlang-society, but not an "Esperanto organisation". Likewise the organization of English as sole official language with the only aim to educate other people in Esperanto would be just a language school like Berlitz, and a choir or singing gathering where people sing Esperanto songs would be a choir or an informal singing gathering - and I wouldm't say there is no educational aim in practising anything not to forget it - but anyway, these wouldn't be "Esperanto organizations". Furthermore, to my knowledge there is not a single club or society or oranisation in the world
- which doesn't have an official language where we collect data about Esperanto
- which has English as sole official language where we educate other people in Esperanto
- where members sing Esperanto songs they know already - not educational - but with the aim to not forget them.
If you found the first ones, please go forward, but then your first organisations of that kind have to grow significantly to meet the notability guidelines, and when one of your organizations did reach those notability guidelines, get a wikipedia article and an item in wikidata, then we can meet and discuss if such an organisation in fact is a conlang-society, a language school or an "Esperanto organisation". But in the existing wikidata items I couldn't think of a single one which would now meet the criteria. Do you? ThomasPusch (talk) 14:49, 13 February 2024 (UTC)