Talk:Q1232580
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Autodescription — Grattius (Q1232580)
description: Roman poet
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- See also : Synia#author : Grattius
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Dates[edit]
I deleted some values that are not attested in ancient sources but are only disputed and unproven hypotheses by the modern scholarship. The life data -43 and +14 are no real birth/death data but only mean the time span during which Grattius must have published his work (see the source bnf.fr: "Actif entre -43 et 14 après J.-C." --DerMaxdorfer (talk) 14:33, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- @DerMaxdorfer: thanks for noticing; I have added the values provided by the BNF as work period (start) (P2031) and work period (end) (P2032) instead of birth/death dates. --Jahl de Vautban (talk) 16:42, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Jahl de Vautban: Those dates are not really start and end dates of Grattius' activity but rather earliest and latest possible dates for the publication of his only known work (see en:Terminus post quem). I don't know whether there is a better way to translate that fact into Wikidata properties... Kind regards, DerMaxdorfer (talk) 16:49, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- @DerMaxdorfer: the BNF is saying that as least; for the GND 43 BC and 14 AD are "Lebensdaten" and for yet other sources Grattius is only contemporaneous of Augustus or Ovid. Likewise we will never know exactly; good thing is that it is not Wikidata job to find the truth, only to gather what other have said about it! Best would be to gather whatever sources say about Grattius and sort it, like I did on e. g. Sappho (Q17892). --Jahl de Vautban (talk) 17:16, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- When it comes to ancient persons, library catalogues like the BNF or the DNB aren't reliable sources in my opinion as they regularly copy data from each other without checking it and even often misinterpret things. The scholarship on Grattius (that I've summarized today in de:Grattius) is really sure that nothing can be said on his life data – except that he is born in the 1st century BC and died probably in the 1st century AD. The only way to get more precise chronological information is to compare his work with other ancient works (e.g. by Ovid) and analyzing that Grattius must have known these works or vice versa. I don't see any sense in collecting fake-data that have been produced by librarians trying to press complicated hypotheses of classical scholarship in the requirements of their standardized databases (as it is the case obviously with the GND). But that is of course only my point of view... :-) --DerMaxdorfer (talk) 17:35, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- As someone trained in Ancient history I certainly agree with you; I myself wouldn't bother with either the BNF or the GND if I were to write something remotely academic about Grattius
. But we shouldn't contribute to Wikidata the same way we would be writing the next article for the RE ; for Wikidata purpose we should first gather every available data and then sort it (or rather rank it) according to the inherent or relative quality of the source used. Also a database is an awfully limited tool when it comes to imprecision, specially of chronological value, which we have to deal with all the time. I have no idea what would be the best way to translate OCD's "Augustan poet contemporary with Ovid before 8 ce" in Wikidata date format. So here we go, I have added birth and death date with the century precision. --Jahl de Vautban (talk) 18:16, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- You are perfectly right about the differences between a RE author and a Wikidata contributor. But even as a Wikipedia author, I allow myself to discard sources of which i see clearly that they misunderstood something. Maybe Wikidata has other requirements in that regard. --DerMaxdorfer (talk) 21:54, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- As someone trained in Ancient history I certainly agree with you; I myself wouldn't bother with either the BNF or the GND if I were to write something remotely academic about Grattius
- When it comes to ancient persons, library catalogues like the BNF or the DNB aren't reliable sources in my opinion as they regularly copy data from each other without checking it and even often misinterpret things. The scholarship on Grattius (that I've summarized today in de:Grattius) is really sure that nothing can be said on his life data – except that he is born in the 1st century BC and died probably in the 1st century AD. The only way to get more precise chronological information is to compare his work with other ancient works (e.g. by Ovid) and analyzing that Grattius must have known these works or vice versa. I don't see any sense in collecting fake-data that have been produced by librarians trying to press complicated hypotheses of classical scholarship in the requirements of their standardized databases (as it is the case obviously with the GND). But that is of course only my point of view... :-) --DerMaxdorfer (talk) 17:35, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- @DerMaxdorfer: the BNF is saying that as least; for the GND 43 BC and 14 AD are "Lebensdaten" and for yet other sources Grattius is only contemporaneous of Augustus or Ovid. Likewise we will never know exactly; good thing is that it is not Wikidata job to find the truth, only to gather what other have said about it! Best would be to gather whatever sources say about Grattius and sort it, like I did on e. g. Sappho (Q17892). --Jahl de Vautban (talk) 17:16, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Jahl de Vautban: Those dates are not really start and end dates of Grattius' activity but rather earliest and latest possible dates for the publication of his only known work (see en:Terminus post quem). I don't know whether there is a better way to translate that fact into Wikidata properties... Kind regards, DerMaxdorfer (talk) 16:49, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
