Wikidata:Property proposal/Book ordinal in a publication series
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Book ordinal in series[edit]
Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Organization
Not done
| Description | This property describes the order of the book within a book series. |
|---|---|
| Data type | Quantity |
| Example 1 | al-ʻIlm wa-mushkilāt al-insān al-muʻāṣir (Q112685740) → 5 |
| Example 2 | Unified dictionary for terminologies of general and nuclear physics (Q113987323) → 2 |
| Example 3 | mntẖbāt mn al-ǧwāb ʿli aqtrāḥ al-ʾaḥbāb (al-mktbẗ al-būlsīẗ, 1985) (Q113541349) → 8 |
التحفيز[edit]
This is a piece of new bibliographical information needed to better cite books using citeQ template. It is similar to the series ordinal (P1545), but it is limited to books and should be used to describe the item. Currently, series ordinal (P1545) can only be used as a qualifier.
Discussion[edit]
Support This is one of the important properties required in Wikidata and must be available. Mohammed Qays (talk) 16:52, 2 November 2023 (UTC)- Support important property. Ahmed Naji Talk 16:52, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support--— Osama Eid (talk) 17:14, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose It seems a very narrowly defined property. having series ordinal (P1545) available other than as a qualifier seems more useful. What about music or video recordings, monographs, partwork magazines, events etc. The series needs to be in WD for it to be helpful to say something is part 8 of it, in which case part of the series (P179) with a series ordinal (P1545) qualifier is best.
- A qualifier is not not the same as a main value. qualifiers are used to make query more easy, but they are not meant to store data. The order of a book in a series is a data value, it should be stored with the items and used by citeQ to appear in the citiations.--Michel Bakni (talk) 15:51, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- What do you mean they should not store data? See Help:Qualifiers and a quote from there Qualifiers can also be used for statements with just a single value in order to further specify the application of a property, to constrain the validity of the value, or to give additional details about the value (such as at what point of time the values are/were accurate). One common application is start time (P580) as a qualifier to a position / employment. Of course a start and end data is data. And here this is exactly what it allows you to do, provide additional context about a value such as part of the series (P179) and give context about which ordinal it has as part of a series. Note also that series ordinal (P1545) only makes sense when combined with part of the series (P179) and as such it makes great sense to use it as a qualifier. I think you need to clearly spell out if your proposal is supposed to solve a technical problem/limitation or a conceptual limitation. Additional, the current approach allows an entity to be part of more than one series and have a series ordinal for each individual series which your approach would not allow, see for example here where a movie is both the first of a trilogy and the fourth of a six film series (same [1]. So overall, I dont see what your solution can do that cannot already be done with the current tools - instead, it seems to reduce the capabilities of our current modelling. --Hannes Röst (talk) 20:19, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- A qualifier is not not the same as a main value. qualifiers are used to make query more easy, but they are not meant to store data. The order of a book in a series is a data value, it should be stored with the items and used by citeQ to appear in the citiations.--Michel Bakni (talk) 15:51, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
Comment is there a reason the Infoboxes can’t read part of the series (P179) with a series ordinal (P1545)? - PKM (talk) 23:14, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- This is for citeQ template, not for the infobox.--Michel Bakni (talk) 15:51, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Is there a reason the citeQ template cant simply read the qualifier? Also, you didnt answer the question above, why cant the scope of series ordinal (P1545) be expanded to cover this usecase if it is technically not feasible to read this into citeQ? --Hannes Röst (talk) 20:38, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- I am not capable of answering such a technical question, sorry, I am pinging @حبيشان who is devoloping the arabic version of the citeQ module. Michel Bakni (talk) 21:16, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Is there a reason the citeQ template cant simply read the qualifier? Also, you didnt answer the question above, why cant the scope of series ordinal (P1545) be expanded to cover this usecase if it is technically not feasible to read this into citeQ? --Hannes Röst (talk) 20:38, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- This is for citeQ template, not for the infobox.--Michel Bakni (talk) 15:51, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose recording the series ordinal as a single data value without the context to which series it refers to strikes me as a bad solution that attempts to record data without proper context. An ordinal without information to which series an entity belongs is essentially useless, so I think the current approach makes much more sense and properly models the data. --Hannes Röst (talk) 20:22, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- The name of the series can be added as a qualifier. Michel Bakni (talk) 23:26, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose part of the series (P179) with a series ordinal (P1545) works OK. --Jklamo (talk) 23:08, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
Not done, no consensus of proposed property at this time based on the above discussion. Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 10:12, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
