Property talk:P4633
Documentation
name by which a character role is recorded in a database or mentioned in the context of a work, use as qualifier for cast; notably a specific performance of a theatrical production of a play
| Data type | String | ||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Domain | theatrical production (Q7777570) or première (Q204854) | ||||||||||||
| Example | Der Hauptmann von Köpenick (Q40289399) → Dienstmann | ||||||||||||
| See also | character role (P453), subject named as (P1810), voice actor (P725), cast member (P161) | ||||||||||||
| Lists | |||||||||||||
| Proposal discussion | Proposal discussion | ||||||||||||
| Current uses |
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| Search for values |
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4633#Scope, SPARQL
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4633#Item P161, search, SPARQL
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4633#Type Q7777570, Q204854, SPARQL
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P4633#Entity types
multilingual string[edit]
I think this statement should be a multilingual string, since it might also contain Descriptions of Characters and not only names. Is it possible to change that afterwards? --Shisma (talk) 07:46, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
I support as mentioned here Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2020/09#Characters_in_movies/series. It's also strange that this property is of type string, but parent property name (P2561) is of type "monoligual text". --Kanzat (talk) 12:19, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
use for names that are not personal names[edit]
There is an edit war going on between me and User:MovieFex at Life is Beautiful (Q19355) as he won't accept that this item is used for other names than proper names, contrary to what is indicated in the property proposal. Maybe someone has an opinion or wants to weight in. @Beat Estermann, Shisma: as the person who proposed the property and someone who started a discussion here.
Notified participants of WikiProject Performing arts
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Notified participants of WikiProject Theatre
As projects that may be interested in this property. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 08:10, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
- I see that there was a proposal to rename this property to "character role named as". Maybe this would be the best solution to the problem. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 08:13, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
- For films, we generally use items, not this property. For theatre, the problem this property tries to address is that every representation could potentially use a different name for the same character of a given play. For films, a proposal for a similar property was rejected. --- Jura 10:33, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply. The issue I have with MovieFex's behaviour is that he/she does not generally reject P4633 on movie items (there he/she would have a point) but rejects only those that don't contain personal names.
- Moreover I noticed that some items for character roles got deleted as they were regarded as "too minor". The result are items like Iron Man 3 (Q209538) with a lot of name of the character role (P4633). Should these be deleted, too? I don't think so as they still provide useful information.
- To explain why I want to keep these qualifiers or at least don't want them silently deleted: Currently I'm working on films participating in the European Film Awards. I'm at the stage of adding basic informations to these films. I use name of the character role (P4633) as a place holder to be able to create character items on a third stage, when providing more detailed information. This should be quite easy with quickstatements. I see this in accord with the use of this property on other items, even though character items are preferred (with which I absolutely agree). By deleting this qualifier MovieFex deprives me of the basis of my "third stage", when I want to provide character information. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 12:15, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- About the use of name of the character role (P4633) on film items: I was curious how many and which film items use name of the character role (P4633) and wrote a
- There are ca.
9001010 film items with at least one statement qualified with name of the character role (P4633), ca.42504750 films altogether (at least one name of the character role (P4633) or character role (P453) statement) and ca.17902540 items with name of the character role (P4633) (including performing arts productions). A bit more than one fifth of all films having character roles specified somehow use that property and ca.one halftwo fifth of all items using name of the character role (P4633) are films. So films have theirequalshare in the use of this property compared to performing arts productions. And to use name of the character role (P4633) is not really an exception for film items. - There are very prominent items like Iron Man 3 (Q209538), Captain America: Civil War (Q18407657), Captain America: The First Avenger (Q275120) and Guardians of the Galaxy (Q5887360) using this property. This use makes sense to me as also film characters can appear in multiple films from the same narrative universe with multiple names. Moreover, the term used to refer to the character in the credits may differ from the generally used name. I can't see why it should be less important for film items to capture the exact mention of an entity than for performing arts productions. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 14:32, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Rename and docs[edit]
I'm not sure I understand what is this property for and how to properly use this, because I'm not familiar with theaters very much, but it looks like this should only be used with theater items, not movies. That's why I think we need to rename it from "name of the character role" to "name of the character role (theatre)" or something like this. Current name is too broad, and misleading (there are around 1218 movies that use it), although the Domain above states that it should be used for theatrical production (Q7777570) or première (Q204854) only.
Also it would be very good if someone could update the property documentation to explain when and how to use it, provide examples for première (Q204854), explain difference between this and subject named as (P1810), explain why this prop doesn't have to be translated.
Notified participants of WikiProject Performing arts
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Notified participants of WikiProject Theatre
--Kanzat (talk) 13:28, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
@Kanzat: Maybe the (random) poster from Commons can illustrate the difference between P4633/P1810/P453/P161:
- P4633 is for name of the role (left in each column),
- P1810 for the name of actor (right in each column).
Both values would be added as written there.
Items for the values would be added with:
- character role (P453) for the role (which may be named differently in other productions of the same play)
- cast member (P161) for the actor (who may have used different names or differently spelled names during his career)
Sample at Q40289399#P161.
If I followed the explanation I vaguely recall as given by @Beat Estermann:, premieres are mostly used to build these databases as they generally better documented and the assumption is that the changes to cast/roles for the rest of the season are only minor (or not necessarily well sourceable). --- Jura 10:15, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- Kanzat, any ideas on how to list the names of character roles in items for films, especially for cases when an actor/actress plays minor role / minor and nameless role / leading role with little-to-no significant cultural value. Do you believe we will use the property of 'character role', or will we leave the character names unlisted? I'm not excluding I didn't duly understand you. --Wolverène (talk) 11:01, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- he Domain above states that it should be used for theatrical production or première only -- simply add more potential values for 'type constraint'. The property requires the usage of just 'cast members' (see 'property constraint' -> 'item requires statement constraint'). --Wolverène (talk) 11:05, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
Equivalent of this property[edit]
What are the equivalents of this property for other things such as films and TV? We should list them so as to make it easy for contributors Back ache (talk) 09:44, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- character role (P453). See Wikidata:WikiProject_Movies/Properties for a full list in the field. On Wikidata talk:WikiProject_Movies you might find help for specific questions. --- Jura 10:23, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- This is not a perfect equivalent. If a movie actor plays a nameless role of some shoemaker or salesperson, there's no need at all to create a special item to get it fit for P458. "named as" is also not OK for similar cases. The changing name of this item is doubtful and has been implemented unilaterally, I dare to revert that until the consensus will not be reached. --Wolverène (talk) 10:53, 5 November 2020 (UTC)