Topic on User talk:Ogoorcs

https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Property:P248&diff=761515879&oldid=761515010&diffmode=source

Bonsoir, je découvre ce changement alors que je suis en train d'éditer. A-t-il été discuté (et approuvé) quelque part avant d'être mis en oeuvre ? si oui, où ?

c'est extrêmement déstabilisant de voir soudain apparaître un nouveau libellé (prioritaire) pour une propriété qu'on utilise des dizaines de fois par jour...

Why this sudden change, without previous debate I can find, in a language that is apparently not yours (since you're Italian), and without mention on Wikidata:Bistro in fr ?

This is very disturbing for contributors who suddenly see a very used property's label changing.

Please provide link to a discussion and/or consensus about this, with fr contributors...

>This is very disturbing for contributors who suddenly see a very used property's label changing.

The previous label is still available as an alias. The main label was changed because in the course of 2018 (january) a subtle change was made in the English description, that was previously present in French but not in all languages, that could lead users to think that the property had to be constrained to have instances of "work" and "source of information" as values, thus limiting many use cases.

Futher, it would have no sense in having "stated in" (or its French equivalent): "Microsoft". It is useful and meaninful such a statement for a reference to 'https://microsoft.com' for example.

I think the 'source of XX' label is more general and appropriate to describe "human" and "organization" values.

So, because en contributors changed their description, you, yourself, alone, decided to change the label in a language that is not yours, without even discussing it with the concerned language community... do you really think your understanding of French is better than ours ? fr description already is explicit about the "source only" use

Please let french contributors discuss and decide the modification of fr-labels if they think it's necessary... do NOT do this without discussion in the proper place -> Wikidata:Bistro

>So, because en contributors changed their description, you, yourself, alone, decided to change the label

That's why they call it wiki.

>in a language that is not yours, without even discussing it with the concerned language community...

Wikidata is a multi-language project. A property has to convey the same meaning through different languages; I know some French and our languages are very similar; I perfectly know the difference between 'affirmé dans' and 'source of déclaration', they translate literally in Italian.

>do you really think your understanding of French is better than ours?

So in French is it correct to say 'affirmé dans': 'Polydore Vergil'? That's the example usage reported in the property page, not something I invented on my own.

>fr description already is explicit about the "source only" use

That is the problem. The property is not only about works, but any other information source, too. Simply 'affirmé dans' is not correct when you are using humans, organization or other types of items for your statements.

>Please let french contributors discuss and decide the modification of fr-labels if they think it's necessary... do NOT do this without discussion in the proper place

Again, if your community decides to ignore how the property works, I do not have to discuss it in your language's project page. At max we can open a section in the discussion page if you think I am wrong, but again, I simply replaced the label to reflect property usage.

do you understand the meaning of "consensus" ? a few months ago, the discussion for the right phrasing for the label of date of death (P570) in French lasted for weeks...

you cannot replace something so used without even discussing it... please discuss it on Wikidata:Bistro

One can't ignore the fact that 'declaré dans' is not appropriate with human values, so I have to moral obligation to change the label.

If you think there is a better way to express it you are welcome to discuss it where you want (preferably in the discussion page and in English (because there are not only French contributors)), but anyway we can't have an obviously wrong label and so since 'source de la déclaration', which is at least correct, can stay as a temporary label.

affirmé PAR is ok for works, databases, and human beings also...

It is okay for me, too. As a native speaker, I would really appreciate if you edited the description in a way that respect all information sources.

I took 'source of la déclaration' only because it was generic enough and already listed in the aliases for a long time. :-D

already done

setting aside the relative merits of one label versus another, I agree that changes in labels are a big deal and should be discussed on the talk page before making any change. While wikidata is indeed a Wiki, I think label changes should have a higher threshold for consensus relative to adding another statement (for example). Best, Andrew Su (talk) 19:06, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

That is totally my point, especially on a property used so much as this one... Thanks.

@Andrew_Su:, there is a section about the label change in the discussion page.

Also, a priori thresholds only bring inaction. You can check in how many items I've opened discussions left without replies for months: most of them still rest unaswered.

If I didn't edit the label directly, probably both of you didn't have partecipated in the discussion.

Futher, dull bureaucrats especially like a priori discussions.

If label changes, which are one click undoable, are unwelcomed, discussions happens the same.

A priori discussions are the same as an useless preference:

   Is the annoyance or inefficiency significant, or did it cost them 1 second doing something that users do once per week on average? If it's just some trivial thing, then the extra feature or preference probably costs more than it's worth, even if you can't make things Just Work.

source: https://ometer.com/preferences.html

if you ping nobody, nobody will see this...

If you want people to discuss with you, you need to tell them... put a message on the Project Chat... and for things concerning French language, on the fr language PC which is Wikidata:Bistro. I can assure you discussions there can be very heated...

If I didn't like a change, I would go on the discussion page of the user who did it (the same as you did), discover that an issue has already been opened on the argument and talk there.

Probably even a new wiki user would do that.

If the discussion would heat up, an issue on the item page could be opened linking the user page discussion.

This way only interested users would intervene in the discussion; on the contrary, on project page lots of bureaucrats, trolls and notorious troublemakers who do not really have to say something meaningful would argument and the status quo or opinion of more charismatic and notorious user groups would prevail.

Aaaand that's one of the reasons many wikis (like itwiki) still don't have Flow enabled in the preferences.

If you compare wp and wd on their practices, changing a ''Property label'' like you did, is equivalent to changing the way a very used template works... this is not the best way to get people to follow your point... this is the best way to infuriate contributors who want to be able to work !

Why is that? The property is accessible in the same way as before. Changing labels does not change at all the way properties work.

In any case, did you notice how in the property discussion page already two users came to not discuss my argument, but to state how their usage is the correct one despite property proposal and initial description? LOL