Talk:Q27530903

Was Altona Danish?

Hi, I would like to propoese some changes in his dataset. I won't change anything straight away by myself right now for a number of reasons. Firstly, I generally support the idea to collaboratively agree on changes before they are made. Secondly, I am not so familiar yet with Wikidata and I don't want to mess around with things. And thirdly, many people in Denmark and especially in Altona tend to react very emotional to any attempt, to dismantle what I call the "Danish myth" of Altona. The issue is controversial so it must be discussed first.

It is highly misleading, to call Altona a "formerly danish city" because of a number of reasons, relating constitutional and international law, politics, linguistics, and culture.

Constitutionally, Altona belonged from its beginnings to the Duchy of Holstein, which legally belonged to the Holy Roman Empire until 1806 and from 1815 to the German Confederation.

The king of Denmark became Duke of Holstein in personal union in 1640. Wikipedia: "A personal union is the combination of two or more states that have the same monarch while their boundaries, laws, and interests remain distinct" i.e. Hostein and Denmark did not become one country, only because both countries had the same person as monarch. The Frederiks and Christians had the position of German dukes and not of Danish kings in Altona/Holstein.

The administration of Holstein remained distinct from the administration of Denamrk at all times. Holstein was gouverned from the German Chancery in Copenhagen in German and Latin language. The Chancery served as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Denmark, on the other hand, was gouverned by the Danish Chancery in Danish.

Civil, military and clerical staff in Altona was overwhelmingly recruited from locals.

Official language and the language of the people was German (earlier Low German, later High German). Newspapers and press published solely in German. Nobody considered themselves as Danes. Point of self-identification usually was Altona, Holstein and later (since the beginning of the 19th century) increasingly Germany. Nobody in Altona considered themselves as Danes.

Someone who reads Altona was a "formerly danish city" could easily believe that Altona "was in Denmark" or that the inhabitants were Danes or they spoke Danish. None of this is true. Altona belonged to the danish "Union Sstate" (Danish "Helstaten", German: "Gesamtstaat") which was a accumulation of souvereign states. Legally, it was not one single country, though but a number of countries. It is important, not to confuse the Kingdom of Denmark with the Danish Union State.

And yes, Altona had a special relationship to Denmark and was under Danish influence. However, this still doesn't make Altona a "Danish" town.

If there is any doubt in my arguments, I will provide quite a number of scientific sources to support my opinion. Also I would like to recommend an article of mine on this issue in German.

Following statements are subject to change:

Description

Following descripions are misleading:

formerly danish city, now part of Hamburg
ehemals dänische Stadt in Holstein
tidligere dansk by i Holsten

Statements

Following statements are wrong:

country

Denmark - end time - 1865
Germany - end time - 1867
Austria - end time - 1867
Austria - start time - 1865

Altona was a town in the Duchy of Holstein. As explained above, Holstein did not lose its souvereignity (except 1806 to 1815, see below), even if the King of Denmark was in personal union the Duke of Holstein. Same applies to Austria. Altona was under Danish and Austrian rule, but that does not say that it was part of these countries.

Here my proposed changes:

Description

formerly independent city in Holstein, now part of Hamburg
ehemals selbstständige Stadt in Holstein
tidligere selvstændig by i Holsten

The correct constitutional situation is as follows. Although the time from 1806 to 1815 in reality didn't make Altona more Danish as it was only on paper without any changes in politics or administration, Holstein belonged maybe not in practice (de facto) but by international law (de jure) to Denmark, as there existed no "Germany" in these years.

country

Holy Roman Empire - start time - 1535
Holy Roman Empire - end time - 1806
Denmark - start time - 1806
Denmark - end time - 1815
German Confederation - start time - 1815
German Confederation - end time - 1867
North German Confederation - start time - 1867
North German Confederation - end time - 1871
German Empire - start time - 1871
German Empire - end time - 1918
Weimar Republic - start time - 1918
Weimar Republic - end time - 1933
Nazi Germany - start time - 1933
Nazi Germany - end time - 31 March 1938

In order to mention the administration by Denmark until 1864 and by Austria until 1867. I would propose to list the head of state? Any other suggestions?

head of state

King of Denmark - start time - 1535
King of Denmark - end time - 1864
Emperor of Austria - start time - 1865
Emperor of Austria - end time - 1867
King of Prussia - start time - 1867
King of Prussia - end time - 1871
German Emperor - start time - 1871
German Emperor - end time - 1918
President of Germany - start time - 1919
President of Germany - end time - 1945

instance of

district of Prussia - start time - 22 September 1867
district of Prussia - end time - 31 March 1937
Hamburg - start time - 1 April 1937

located in the administrative territorial entity

Duchy of Holstein- start time - 1535
Duchy of Holstein - end time - 25 September 1867
Province of Schleswig-Holstein - start time - 26 September 1867
Province of Schleswig-Holstein - end time - 31 March 1937
Hamburg - start time - 1 April 1937

I am looking forward to your answers!

Pod-o-mart (talk) 01:48, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

@Pod-o-mart: Jeg er stort set enig. Beskrivelsen på hollandsk ("stad in Denemarken") er endnu mere misvisende idet den ikke engang indeholder ordet "tidligere".

• instance of (P31): Den nuværende værdi city (Q515) er rigtig men jeg er usikker på om dato-kvalifikatorerne har de rette værdi værdier. Er 1. april 1938 korrekt? Altona (Q1630) siger 31. marts 1938.

  Tilfælde af district of Prussia (Q5283531) er sikkert rigtigt (selvom det ligger udenfor min viden), men det giver ikke mening at sige "tilfælde af Hamburg (Q1055)". I det hele taget dækker dette element (Q27530903) kun tiden hvor Altona var en selvstændig by. Tiden som del af Hamborg hører under elementet Altona (Q1630). Men hvad var Altonas status fra 1937 til 1938, en selvstændig by under Hamborg?

• head of state (P35): Denne egenskab bruges normalt kun for elementer om lande. Der er ingen grund til at udfylde den for områder beliggende i landet. De har i stedet værdier for country (P17), som man så kan bruge til at finde det/de relevante lande-elementer og se dets/deres værdier for head of state (P35).

Ellers synes jeg forslaget ser fornuftig ud. Det vil være bedst hvis du også anføre referencer til udsagnene.

(I can translate to English on demand) --Dipsacus fullonum (talk) 06:51, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Hej @Dipsacus fullonum:, tak for dit svar.

Er 1. april 1938 korrekt? Altona (Q1630) siger 31. marts 1938.

31. marts 1938 er korrekt.

Men hvad var Altonas status fra 1937 til 1938, en selvstændig by under Hamborg?

Netop, administrativt set var Altona en selvstændig by under Hamborg fra 1. april 1937 til 31. marts 1938.

head of state (P35) udelader jeg bare.

Egentlig synes jeg det ikke nødvendig at have en separat artikel til den selvstændige Altona, fordi vi allerede har Altona (Q1630). Det er også kun den danske Wikipedia, som har sådan en artikel... Men det er lige meget for mig. Går i gang med ændringerne i nærmere tid. Pod-o-mart (talk) 20:21, 26 September 2021 (UTC)