Wikidata:Property proposal/scribe.amanuensis or copyist.illuminator

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scribe, amanuensis or copyist[edit]

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

   Withdrawn
Descriptiona person who writes or copies a text. A person employed to write or type what another dictates or to copy what has been written by another
Representsscribe (Q916292), amanuensis (Q499134), Q3175423
Data typeItem
Template parameter
Domainmanuscript (Q87167), version, edition, or translation (Q3331189), individual copy of book (Q53731850), work (Q386724)
Allowed valuesperson (Q215627), character that may be fictional (Q21070598), fictional character (Q95074), human (Q5), group of humans (Q16334295)
Example 1The Life of St. Sava (Q19569020)Domentijan (Q7204863)
Example 2The Life of St. Sava (Q19569022)Teodosije the Hilandarian (Q1561698)
Example 3Leabhar Ua Maine (Q6508260)Ádhamh Cúisín (Q8076504)
Example 4Nikša Ranjina's Miscellany (Q12645642)Nikša Ranjina (Q7036759)
Wikidata projecthttps://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Books#Manuscript_properties

illuminator[edit]

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

   Withdrawn
Descriptiona person who performs paintings or drawings by hand, that decorates or illustrates a text
Representsilluminator (Q998628)
Data typeItem
Template parameter
Domainmanuscript (Q87167), version, edition, or translation (Q3331189), individual copy of book (Q53731850), work (Q386724)
Allowed valuesperson (Q215627), character that may be fictional (Q21070598), fictional character (Q95074), human (Q5), group of humans (Q16334295)
Example 1Hours of Jeanne d'Evreux (Q1516907)Jean Pucelle (Q175888)
Example 2Psalter of Bonne de Luxembourg (Q3409488)Jean Le Noir (Q2086378)
Example 3Belles Heures of Jean de France, Duc de Berry (Q1959777)Limbourg brothers (Q217816)
Example 4Q2986203Godefroy le Batave (Q47004540)
Wikidata projecthttps://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Books#Manuscript_properties
Subproperty ofcreator (P170)

Motivation[edit]

According to the debate in the Wikidata:Property proposal/calligrapher: @Bodhisattwa, Hrishikes, ديفيد عادل وهبة خليل 2, Mahir256: @Jason.nlw, Sic19, Kolja21:

For my part, according to History, the materials and media, the sense of occupation, the countries, a scribe, an illuminator, a letterer, a copyist (etc.) do not have the same meaning at all. By the way, if we take the WP pages to look at the meanings of each occupation, they have a diametrically different meaning. Scribe and copyist must be a property, illuminator must be another. In all wikis, there are many uses of scribe. In enwiki, there are already 22 uses of scribe in the Infobox manuscript template. There are 20 wikis using this template. The illuminators do not work only on manuscripts and there are many examples too. --Eihel (talk) 13:09, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Aubrey
Viswaprabha (talk)
Micru
Tpt
EugeneZelenko
User:Jarekt
Maximilianklein (talk)
Don-kun
VIGNERON (talk)
Jane023 (talk) 08:21, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Alexander Doria (talk)
Ruud 23:15, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Kolja21
arashtitan
Jayanta Nath
Yann (talk)
John Vandenberg (talk) 09:14, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
JakobVoss
Danmichaelo (talk) 19:30, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Ravi (talk)
Mvolz (talk) 08:21, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Hsarrazin (talk) 07:56, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Accurimbono
Mushroom
PKM (talk) 19:58, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Revi 16:54, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 23:36, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
Almondega (talk) 00:17, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
maxlath
Jura to help sort out issues with other projects
Epìdosis
Skim (talk) 13:52, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
Marchitelli (talk) 12:29, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
BrillLyle (talk) 15:33, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Alexmar983 (talk) 23:53, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
Finn Årup Nielsen (fnielsen) (talk) 10:44, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Chiara (talk) 14:15, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Thibaut120094 (talk) 20:31, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Ivanhercaz | Discusión Plume pen w.png 15:30, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
YULdigitalpreservation (talk) 17:35, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
User:Jc3s5h
PatHadley (talk) 21:51, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Erica (ohmyerica) (talk) 19:26, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
User:Timmy_Finnegan
Mauricio V. Genta (talk) 05:38, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
Sam Wilson 09:24, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
Sic19 (talk) 22:25, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Andreasmperu
MartinPoulter (talk) 09:21, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
ThelmadatterThelmadatter (talk) 01:11, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
Zeroth (talk) 15:01, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
Emeritus
Ankry
Beat Estermann (talk) 20:07, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
Shilonite - specialize in cataloging Jewish & Hebrew books
Elena moz
Oa01 (talk) 10:52, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
Maria zaos (talk) 11:39, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
Wikidelo (talk) 13:07, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Mfchris84 (talk) 10:08, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Mlemusrojas (talk) 3:36, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
salgo60 Salgo60 (talk) 12:42, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
Dick Bos (talk) 14:35, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Marco Chemello (BEIC) (talk) 07:26, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
Harshrathod50
 徵國單  (討論 🀄) (方孔錢 💴) 14:35, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
Alicia Fagerving (WMSE)
Louize5 (talk) 20:05, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
Viztor (talk) 05:48, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
RaymondYee (talk) 21:12, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
Merrilee (talk) 22:14, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
Kcoyle (talk) 22:17, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
JohnMarkOckerbloom (talk) 22:58, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
Tris T7 TT me
Helmoony (talk) 19:49, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Naunc1
Shooke (talk) 19:17, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
DarwIn (talk) 14:58, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
I am Davidzdh. 16:08, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
Juandev (talk) 10:03, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Buccalon (talk) 15:51, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
MJLTalk 16:48, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Rosiestep (talk) 20:26, 24 April 2019 (UTC) Dcflyer (talk) 12:23, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
Pictogram voting comment.svg Notified participants of WikiProject Books --Eihel (talk) 11:29, 17 June 2019 (UTC) ... Many participants in this project:
@Helmoony, Yann, Epìdosis, Tpt, Thibaut120094, Alexmar983:, re-ping some project participants. --Eihel (talk) 16:17, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

  • Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment I would use illustrator (P110) for illuminator and restore the original version of calligrapher (P6819) so it can be used for calligraphers and copyists. This was the original proposal: "calligrapher, scribe or copist of a work." --Kolja21 (talk) 14:52, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
    First, a thousand excuses, @Kolja21:. I made a mistake in translation: I mixed (from the French) initial (Q378408) and letterer (Q658404). So I changed P6819 into a calligrapher.
    In a modern comic book, there are illustrations, but none were the work of an illuminator. If we talk about illumination in the thirteenth century in many countries, it referred to the use of gilding, hence the term meaning to "light up", "illuminate", deriving from the Latin illuminare. In German, you do not have an Template:Infobox manuscript (Q14467483), but in other languages, there is a distinction of different works on a manuscript and therefore in the infobox. It is possible to say that the manuscripts were illustrated by illuminations, but if I faithfully translate "illuminate", it gives wiktionary:de:erleuchten and not illustrieren, with a sense of light (leucht). More concretely, when ordering a manuscript, the illumination also had a figurative meaning: to render a document with an extraordinary, divine light. In illuminated manuscript (Q48498), the description in German is mit Malerei, Ornamenten, Blattgold und farbigen Tinten dekorierte Handschrift. This is a particular work.
    For scribe, their works have a more administrative sense, much less artistic. Just take an Q3175423, his role was that of a civil servant, a scholar-official, as Q3196226.
    For copyist, two definitions come to my mind: the one who copied an artistic work on any medium (painting, sculpture), then the one that copied a text. In both cases, it's a matter of making a copy, QED. In the first case, there is an undeniable artistic sense, but you prefer to see the Mona Lisa as its copy. In the second case, most often this work is related to the monk copyist in a scriptorium (Q655185). A job that is done today by printers. Copyists, like Leonhard Wagner (Q1819297), could combine the functions, but most of the time, it was a tedious job, without any artistic sense.
    Etymologically, calligraphy is the art of well forming characters. For example, in WD, a kanji (Q82772) is a manuscript that can host a calligrapher (P6819) (type constraint in the property). Calligraphy has no connection with a scribe, even if their work can be joined at certain points.
    When one appreciates additional, even capital information, it is good to have separate Properties to allow Values to be properly inserted into WP. But if these 2 properties are not retained, it seems important to separate the roles of each (calligrapher, scribe or copist). A property can not collect all the meanings of Template:Infobox manuscript (Q14467483). Several pages of WP already contain several roles held by several people. Best regards. --Eihel (talk) 16:13, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose all. It becomes a real pain to have to deal with a myriad of different properties, both when preparing to write items, and when querying them. Use contributor(s) to the creative work or subject (P767) with qualifier object has role (P3831) to give the contributor's role. Jheald (talk) 15:48, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
    Why not, @Jheald:. In any case, if users want a property for scribe or copyist, they can not encompass all the functions and roles in a property (P6819). Otherwise, we include everything in author (P50) and this is not what is sought in WD. Cordially. --Eihel (talk) 16:38, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
    @Eihel: The MARC system used by libraries all across the world finds it sufficient to distinguish only "author" and "contributor". I think that should suffice for us too, especially given that we can identify the nature of the contribution with object has role (P3831). But as a second-best choice, I would accept the existing calligrapher (P6819), but with no without further fragmentation or additional narrower and narrower properties. Jheald (talk) 17:15, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose use existing properties per above. --Marsupium (talk) 17:23, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment Jheald In MARC, I think that author is the person who is put forward as the main instigator, in any case the principal concerned. In some cases, for example Ptolemy I Soter (Q168261) probably dictated or told his Memoirs (Aristobulus of Cassandreia (Q544987)). I did not check, but Ptolemy is probably the author of his Memoirs in MARK system. In this case too, to treat Aristobulus as a simple scribe would be a challenge. If MARK attributes to a Franciscan scribe the role of author for copying the Bible, that's correct... in their notation.
After 2 times the allotted time, I think these proposals can be closed like "not done". If everyone agrees, of course, and P6819 only qualifies a calligrapher? —Eihel (talk) 00:25, 30 June 2019 (UTC)