Wikidata:Property proposal/doujinshi.org author ID

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doujinshi.org author ID[edit]

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Person

Descriptionthe artist ID on doujinshi.org
RepresentsThe Doujinshi & Manga Lexicon (Q68394971)
Data typeExternal identifier
Domainhuman (Q5)
Allowed values\d+
Example 1Nakayohi Mogudan (Q3869994) -> 332
Example 2Satoshi Urushihara (Q549755) -> 130
Example 3Yoshihiro Nakamura (Q3197671) -> 220
Example 4Shintaro Kago (Q1335558) -> 5296
Example 5Clamp (Q334471) -> 29585
Example 6ShindoL (Q11501623) -> 12765
Example 7U-Jin (Q965600) -> 5825
Example 8Wanyan Aguda (Q874062) -> 279
Example 9Rei Hiroe (Q1390701) -> 2219
Example 10Masamune Shirow (Q442602) -> 21012
Sourcehttps://www.doujinshi.org
External linksUse in sister projects: [ar][de][en][es][fr][he][it][ja][ko][nl][pl][pt][ru][sv][vi][zh][commons][species][wd].
Planned usewell, add this property to artists?
Number of IDs in sourcethere are currently 224538 authors indexed on doujinshi.org
Expected completenessalways incomplete (Q21873886)
Formatter URLhttps://www.doujinshi.org/browse/author/$1/

Motivation[edit]

Should allow anyone to see a list of works (manga, doujinshi, prepublication, etc.) of an artist (also, I plan on adding the same for circle after this proposal if I can find enough example)  – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Iireka (talk • contribs) at 07:36, September 27, 2019‎ (UTC).

Discussion[edit]

  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose Doujinshi are mostly not notable. Not even on Wikidata, I mean. There would be nothing to say but this identifier, and for what purpose? --Lombres (talk) 21:38, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment @Lombres: First, doujinshi being notable or not is your (unjustified) opinion. We are talking about erotica so, sure, it's not being discussed at length in forums and whatever but it's not like doujinshi.org had not 700 millions page views. Second, it's not only about doujinshi but also manga (and mangashi) but maybe manga are not notable? Third, it's not about doujinshi as stand alone pieces but the bibliography of mangaka/illustrators. Ok, we are talking about eromangaka mainly but some eromangaka went mainstream. Doujinshi culture is of utmost importance when talking about mangaka/illustrator (visual-novels, games). Ero-artists pretty much all start by drawing doujinshi and might even still doing it but "notable" mainstream artists may have start here too. Or maybe Clamp, Masamune Shirow or Hiroe Rei are of no importance with their 32/24/9 wikipedia pages (edit: I added 6 more examples but any individual on Q21997246 should be on doujinshi.org)? A boatload of artists are on the Japanese wikipedia and doujinshi.org is not enough Japanese unfriendly for them to not use it. And didn't you recognized the few examples I gave? Do you not know Shintaro Kago and if you do, did you know he drew a lot of doujinshi before being prepublished in commercial magazines (which ones you couldn't say without doujinshi.org anyway)? Last but not least, this identifier might be used by vndb.org which recently started fetching data from here so a lot of staff will be created and filled on wikidata and they have ~6k artist entries. --Iireka (talk) 22:59, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
    @Iireka: I just would like to avoid importing to Wikidata a whole load of artists who only drew self-published doujinshi. If there's a way to add this link only to artists who have later made manga published by big publishing companies, it would be ok. Can we add this property but with a rule that states "no item can exist if it has only this link and no other databases or sitelinks"? --Lombres (talk) 08:40, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
    The always incomplete (Q21873886) completeness should indicate that the id does not confer notability, I think. ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:40, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
    -@Lombres: Reading https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Notability, I don't see how it violates "The entity must be notable, in the sense that it can be described using serious and publicly available references." to add someone who publish doujinshi. Anyway, it's not the job of a property like this (or any property?) to limit the creation of items. It won't even prevent them but sure will prevent the property to be properly applied. If you want to prevent items, challenge those items directly. I don't know if this is a good idea to compare properties but P5435 has no constraint similar to the one you want to add even though it's referencing pictures of artists, something much more shallow than published books. --Iireka (talk) 21:33, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
    @Iireka: if pixiv user ID (P5435) has no constraint, does it mean that I can make an item for every person who has a Pixiv account? But Pixiv is just a social media service! So I could make an item about myself with Facebook ID (P2013) just because I have a Facebook account? If it is so, then Wikidata has a serious problem.
    Anyway, doujinshi.org is not a social network, it's a "serious and publicly available reference" (though it's a private database, I don't know how reliable it would be by Wikipedia standards), so if it is the current policy of Wikidata I won't challenge it here, though I still disagree about how inclusionist Wikidata is. Let's make this property, and I will open a topic somewhere else to discuss about more general issues --Lombres (talk) 22:18, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
    @Lombres: Doujinshi.org is very reliable as it relies mostly on bots that crawl stores. There is no problem with pixiv or facebook being properties because they allow the addition of valuable information about items. I understand your problem but this is really not a valid argument to prevent my property to be created as it adds valuable information to Japanese game illustrators, mangaka, etc. What I want to know, but this doesn't seem to be the place for this, is: how to reach "consensus" if you are the only one who has bothered to care in one month? This is why I am pinging @Pintoch: as he kindly told me I could ask him any question (and if he could speed up the process?).  – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Iireka (talk • contribs).
  • @Iireka: first, please make sure you sign all your comments with ~~~~. Second, I would be reluctant to create this without any {{Support}} vote from anyone (although Lombres seems to be happy with this to go ahead? if so could they add a {{Support}} vote?). To gather more support, please ping any relevant project with {{Ping project}}. Third, looking at the discussion this seems to be about erotica, so it might be good to clearly indicate that it is NSFW (not safe for work) - but I have not checked if this is the case or not. − Pintoch (talk) 17:48, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
    Just to be clear, doujinshi are not per se pornographic. Yes, a lot are but a lot are not. Just by searching for non 18+ doujinshi, I hit the 45000 hits limit. --Iireka (talk) 03:43, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Ok, so, based on Pintoch's advice, I decided to ping... the only manga related project I found, hoping its members know what's a doujinshi (though, once again, doujinshi.org is not only about that despite the name)... :/ --Iireka (talk) 03:43, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Konggaru Starry K. Erne Mogilevich Santer AldNonUcallinme? Thibaut120094 Shikeishu C933103 Sight Contamination -Zest ReaperDawn Sakretsu Jean-Frédéric Tris T7 TT me

Pictogram voting comment.svg Notified participants of WikiProject Anime and Manga

  • (Thanks for the ping! In general, I (and I imagine others too) am unlikely to notice a property proposal unless I’m pinged via a project ^_^
    Symbol support vote.svg Support This looks good to me − looks like an impressive resource. Regarding the discussion above, my understanding is that a property existing does not mean we need to have all its IDs (there was an attempt to codify this with Wikidata property for an identifier that does not imply notability (Q62589320)). If half of the authors in Doujinshi.org turn out to be not notable for Wikidata, that’s fine. :-) Jean-Fred (talk) 21:42, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support --Thibaut (talk) 07:14, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

@Iireka, ArthurPSmith, Lombres, Jean-Frédéric, Thibaut120094: ✓ Done: doujinshi.org author ID (P7511). − Pintoch (talk) 17:56, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

@Pintoch, Iireka: so you made it without constraint? I still believe it would be better to have a constraint like "an item with this property should also have Anime News Network person ID (P1982) OR Media Art Database manga ID (P6369)", just to avoid having items for authors who only made self-published dōjinshi (and so are not in any other database) --Lombres (talk) 18:07, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
@Lombres: that constraint would probably make sense indeed - the fact that I have not added it myself does not mean that I think it should not be there (the constraints I add are the ones that my script can deduce from the proposal template automatically) − Pintoch (talk) 18:17, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
so if Iireka agrees I will add it, and I will add some Wikidata usage instructions (P2559) as well --Lombres (talk) 18:19, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
Not all notable Japanese artists are on Anime News Network person ID (P1982) or Media Art Database manga ID (P6369), especially hentai artists. Also, some doujinshi artists can have their work published in a commercial magazine (which makes them notable) and then if they're lucky, published in a tankoubon. --Thibaut (talk) 18:23, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
  • @Pintoch: Yeah, no, I don't understand why you need a constraint like that in the first place. I agree with @Jean-Frédéric:, it's not because the property is here that suddenly all the artists on it will turn out on wikidata. It's just a new resource from where to link to. That's all. Anyway, ANN is about anime and Media Art Database, well, can't check, it's under maintenance, but I doubt that you will find a resource that is 1/ complete knowing that eromangaka are not very well indexed (in fact, I believe doujinshi.org is THE western reference when it comes to eromangaka) 2/ complete without indexing doujinshi-only artists because it would defeat the purpose of your constraint 3/ a resource that would also take games into account (and games can be doujin too), figures (doujin too aka GK), and any other type of medium a doujinshika would dabble in or be adapted in by other people, and I mean, how do you do if the man is famous for its illustrations? / Also, I challenge the idea that artists doing doujinshi only are not notable. Sure, some are, but a doujinshika has to be notable at some point in time to be featured in a mangashi and some doujinshika are more notable before any commercial publication than some mangaka published commercially into cheap unknown digital-only mangashi. Lastly, pixiv user ID (P5435) has no constraint and it's fine. Wikidata is no assaulted by one-picture-artists, right? Does Instagram username (P2003) has mandatory constraints like this too? I don't see one and god knows how useless people on instagram are. I don't understand why you believe anyone can be added to wikidata just because they can be linked to a property? An item can be added if it IS notable in the first place and THEN you add statements to it using properties, but not the opposite. --Iireka (talk) 00:07, 4 November 2019 (UTC)