Wikidata:Property proposal/Siège occupé
seat occupied
[edit]Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Person
| Description | seat held by a person within an academy or other society |
|---|---|
| Represents | société savante(955824) |
| Data type | Item |
| Example 1 | Louis Fourmaud(Q12949549), membre de(P463) = consistoire du Félibrige(Q126037631) → cigale d'Aquitaine(Q126037836) |
| Example 2 | Erik Orsenna(Q288562), membre de(P463) = Académie française(Q161806) → fauteuil 17 de l'Académie française(Q70495968) |
| Example 3 | Xavier Daumalin(Q129492432), membre de(P463) = Académie de Marseille(Q2822312) → fauteuil 1 de l'Académie de Marseille(Q123984552) |
| See also | circonscription électorale(P768) |
Notified participants of WikiProject Award. Maxime 15:05, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
Notified participants of WikiProject France (puisque tous mes exemples concernent ce pays). Maxime 15:06, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- Discussion
Oppose IMHO use subject has role (P2868) as qualifier instead of creating a new property- J'ai hâte de lire ces propositions, cher collègue. Maxime 10:31, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
- In fact, reading again the examples, I agre with the comment below of @Baidax: that subject has role (P2868) is surely unsuitable; a solution could be using as a qualifier professorship (P803), which I would slightly prefer to creating a new property, so I change to
Weak oppose. I am still preparing al the documentation regarding the modeling of affiliations to learned societies, it should be ready before the end of this week. --Epìdosis 16:32, 6 February 2026 (UTC)
- Il faudrait alors élargir le domaine de P803, car un siège au sein d'un académie n'a pas forcément de rapport avec l'université (ni même l'enseignement). Maxime 21:17, 6 February 2026 (UTC)
- @Maxime Ravel: it took a bit longer, but finally I have opened the discussion about the modeling of members of learned societies: Wikidata talk:WikiProject Learned Societies#Members of learned societies: too many conflicting data models. Epìdosis 22:35, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
- I have continued reflecting on this and effectively professorship (P803) is not a good solution, and I have not found another one, so I finally change to
Support, but specifying that I would use the property not as a qualifier of position held (P39) but as a qualifier of member of (P463) (cf. the general discussion on Learned Societies). --Epìdosis 16:06, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
- I have continued reflecting on this and effectively professorship (P803) is not a good solution, and I have not found another one, so I finally change to
- @Maxime Ravel: it took a bit longer, but finally I have opened the discussion about the modeling of members of learned societies: Wikidata talk:WikiProject Learned Societies#Members of learned societies: too many conflicting data models. Epìdosis 22:35, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
- Il faudrait alors élargir le domaine de P803, car un siège au sein d'un académie n'a pas forcément de rapport avec l'université (ni même l'enseignement). Maxime 21:17, 6 February 2026 (UTC)
- In fact, reading again the examples, I agre with the comment below of @Baidax: that subject has role (P2868) is surely unsuitable; a solution could be using as a qualifier professorship (P803), which I would slightly prefer to creating a new property, so I change to
- J'ai hâte de lire ces propositions, cher collègue. Maxime 10:31, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
Weak support. I don’t see how subject has role (P2868) could be used here. It is precise enough for cases where assemblies have defined seats and where continuity between their occupants is documented. The proposal seems justified, for lack of a better option. — Baidax 💬 15:59, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- En effet Baidax, c'est faute de mieux que j'ai proposé ceci. Maxime 10:09, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
- @Maxime Ravel, Epìdosis, Baidax: Thinking about this some more, it seems to me position held (P39) has precisely this meaning, no? Why doesn't position held (P39) suffice for this? ArthurPSmith (talk) 16:36, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
- This could be effectively a good option. I am thinking about a counter-case in which the person occupied a certain seat and at the same time a certain position (e.g. vicepresident, president) and a certain seat ... but if we codify "president of XX" as value of position held (P39) and the seat with a qualifier of member of (P463), then probably using position held (P39) as qualifier of P463 poses no issue. Epìdosis 17:01, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
- @ArthurPSmith, while your argument is also valid, the position held here is essentially being part of a specific organization, not holding a precise seat. Using position held (P39) alone would therefore mean that we need two statements to describe what is effectively a single position. There are also concrete cases where the distinction matters. For example, the playwright Pol d'Estoc (Q51883108) was elected to the Académie de Marseille in 1932 (seat 38, arts section) and was transferred in 1944 to seat 19 (letters section). His status in the academy remained the same, but the seat changed. With position held (P39) alone, this continuity becomes difficult to represent while still recording the change of seat. Louis Brès is another interesting counterexample: during his career he occupied several different seats and was at one point a "free member" before returning to a sectional seat. These seats are biographically meaningful, and modeling them only through position held (P39) would either require additional qualifiers or split what is essentially the same membership into several statements, making the chronology harder to represent clearly. For this reason, a dedicated property seems justified. It is true that we should avoid multiplying properties, but in this case it allows us to capture specific but historically attested situations in a clearer way. One possible downside I see is that we would then need to check the consistency of the statements so that seats correctly match the corresponding functions. A separate property at least keeps the structure consistent with learned societies that do not have seats at all. Best, Baidax 💬 20:10, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
- Ping @Epìdosis, @Maxime Ravel. — Baidax 💬 20:26, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
- Yes, I agre that while P39 is a possible solution, "the position held here is essentially being part of a specific organization", so a new property would be more precise. --Epìdosis 20:31, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
- Ping @Epìdosis, @Maxime Ravel. — Baidax 💬 20:26, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
- @ArthurPSmith, while your argument is also valid, the position held here is essentially being part of a specific organization, not holding a precise seat. Using position held (P39) alone would therefore mean that we need two statements to describe what is effectively a single position. There are also concrete cases where the distinction matters. For example, the playwright Pol d'Estoc (Q51883108) was elected to the Académie de Marseille in 1932 (seat 38, arts section) and was transferred in 1944 to seat 19 (letters section). His status in the academy remained the same, but the seat changed. With position held (P39) alone, this continuity becomes difficult to represent while still recording the change of seat. Louis Brès is another interesting counterexample: during his career he occupied several different seats and was at one point a "free member" before returning to a sectional seat. These seats are biographically meaningful, and modeling them only through position held (P39) would either require additional qualifiers or split what is essentially the same membership into several statements, making the chronology harder to represent clearly. For this reason, a dedicated property seems justified. It is true that we should avoid multiplying properties, but in this case it allows us to capture specific but historically attested situations in a clearer way. One possible downside I see is that we would then need to check the consistency of the statements so that seats correctly match the corresponding functions. A separate property at least keeps the structure consistent with learned societies that do not have seats at all. Best, Baidax 💬 20:10, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
- This could be effectively a good option. I am thinking about a counter-case in which the person occupied a certain seat and at the same time a certain position (e.g. vicepresident, president) and a certain seat ... but if we codify "president of XX" as value of position held (P39) and the seat with a qualifier of member of (P463), then probably using position held (P39) as qualifier of P463 poses no issue. Epìdosis 17:01, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
@ArthurPSmith, Epìdosis: cela ne serait-il pas incorrect, au plan sémantique ? Car un siège n'est tout bonnement pas une fonction (ce qui l'est, c'est le fait d'occuper ce siège)... Maxime 19:04, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Maxime Ravel, Epìdosis, Baidax:
Done Property is created, please go ahead and use as discussed! ArthurPSmith (talk) 00:27, 12 March 2026 (UTC)
- @ArthurPSmith, Maxime Ravel, Baidax:, thanks for the creation! The qualifier has been applied wherever possible https://qs-dev.toolforge.org/batch/23546/ as substitution of professorship (P803) and represents (P1268). Epìdosis 09:33, 12 March 2026 (UTC)
