Wikidata:Property proposal/Position with respect to the noun

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position with respect to the noun[edit]

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   Under discussion
Descriptionthe position this lexeme must have in respect to the noun, normally to use with adjectives
Data typeItem
Domainlexeme
Allowed valuesbefore (Q79030196) and after (Q79030284)
Example 1red (L3271)before (Q79030196)
Example 2abertzale (L82679)after (Q79030284)
Example 3bueno (L230409)before (Q79030196)
Planned useadd information about adjectives
Expected completenessalways incomplete (Q21873886)

Motivation[edit]

This is relevant if we need to model a language with automatic tools, and also for translation. Where to place the adjective (or other words) is something difficult for many people and machines need to learn it. Theklan (talk) 15:03, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Symbol support vote.svg Support - Theklan (talk) 15:03, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure this is the right way to model this, although I agree something is needed to cover this aspect of language. Another aspect of this is the "adjective order" rules, see en:Adjective#Order - how could that be modeled? It seems like maybe we ought to have something like "classes" for lexemes; we could use instance of (P31) or a custom property to indicate? Not sure how to proceed on this... ArthurPSmith (talk) 20:10, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
@ArthurPSmith: I don't know if this is the best way to do this, but in Basque this is a relevant aspect. And I suspect that it exists also in other languages. -Theklan (talk) 12:42, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment This might vary by sense, cf. French grand (L9217): un grand homme (‘a great man/celebrity’) vs. un homme grand (‘a tall man’). With the proposal being that this be a property of lexemes, would there then be two different lexemes for French grand,
grand (Lxxx1) position with respect to the noun before and
grand (Lxxx2) position with respect to the noun after
(see wikt:fr:grand#Notes)?―BlaueBlüte (talk) 04:41, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment Regarding before (Q79030196) and after (Q79030284), why do we have adverbs ( instance of (P31) adverb (Q380057)) in the item space? (In which case, which language should they be taken from? And should that language be used regardless of the language of the lexemes described by this proposed property?)
Items should represent more abstract concepts (e.g., anteposition (placement of a dependent phrase before the one it depends on) instance of (P31) placement of dependent phrase), not the adverbs used to denote those concepts.―BlaueBlüte (talk) 04:41, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment “with respect to the noun” might be inconveniently narrow, as the lexeme in question might also be a noun phrase or other nominal phrase. And speaking of which, are there languages that have non-arbitrary ordering of certain kinds of adjectives or similar? For example, adjectives that are always positioned after the noun, but before any other adjectives that are also positioned after the noun? Like, ‘ranks’ of adjectives? Maybe the range for this property should in that case be (positive and negative) numeric, e.g., negative numbers meaning before, positive numbers meaning after the ‘noun’, with the absolute value indicating how far (with respect to potential further adjectives as attributes to the same ‘noun’).―BlaueBlüte (talk) 04:41, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

  • BA candidate.svg Weak oppose if it were by sense this would be very good for open-source translations for now, but currently it needs some changes as User:BlaueBlüte says.