Wikidata:Property proposal/Beni Ecclesiastici in web ID

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Online ecclesiastical heritage ID[edit]

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Authority control

   Done
DescriptionOnline ecclesiastical artistic and cultural heritage authority file ID.
RepresentsBeWeb (Q77541206)
Data typeExternal identifier
Domainhuman (Q5), organization (Q43229), family (Q8436)
Allowed values[1-9]\d{0,6}
Example 1Benedict XIII (Q155971)4
Example 2Pius V (Q131945)94
Example 3Benedict XVI (Q2494)6
Example 4Georges Michonneau (Q59530830)2478
Example 5Francis (Q450675)66
Example 6Associazione Guide e Scouts Cattolici Italiani (Q637335)3040 ("ente")
Example 7Q37006481350 ("famiglia")
External linksUse in sister projects: [ar][de][en][es][fr][he][it][ja][ko][nl][pl][pt][ru][sv][vi][zh][commons][species][wd].
Mix'n'match3215
Planned useadd it on existing items and have insight of possible bio we miss
Number of IDs in sourceat least 2975 (more biographical cards exists but are not published yet)
Expected completenessalways incomplete (Q21873886)
Formatter URLhttps://www.beweb.chiesacattolica.it/persone/persona/$1/
See alsoBeWeb church ID (P5611)

Motivation[edit]

BeWeB (Online ecclesiastical heritage), displays the systematic census-taking carried out by Italian dioceses and ecclesiastical cultural institutions on their self-owned holdings belonging to their historical, artistic, archival, and library assets. Cross domain data access is made easier through different search options: full-text, local area, and chronological searches. It also has a qualified Authority File made of individuals, entities, families. BeWeB is a project of "Ufficio Nazionale per i beni culturali ecclesiastici e l’edilizia di culto" instituted by Consiglio Episcopale Permanente on September the 27th 2016. Uallv (talk) 16:55, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Airon90 ValterVB Alexmar983 Epìdosis Pietro Jura Beta16 Yiyi Sannita Camelia Massimo Sentruper Pierpao Marcok CristianNX Daniele Pugliesi (WMIT) AttoRenato Parma1983 Aborruso Sabas88 Lalupa DnaX Fausta Samaritani AlessioMela Patafisik Malore Jtorquy Nicholas Gemini Civvì Devbug Afnecors Susanna Giaccai FabC FeltriaUrbsPicta Horcrux Uomovariabile

Pictogram voting comment.svg Notified participants of WikiProject Italy. --Epìdosis 14:08, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Airon90 ValterVB Alexmar983 Epìdosis Pietro Jura Beta16 Yiyi Sannita Camelia Massimo Sentruper Pierpao Marcok CristianNX Daniele Pugliesi (WMIT) AttoRenato Parma1983 Aborruso Sabas88 Lalupa DnaX Fausta Samaritani AlessioMela Patafisik Malore Jtorquy Nicholas Gemini Civvì Devbug Afnecors Susanna Giaccai FabC FeltriaUrbsPicta Horcrux Uomovariabile

Pictogram voting comment.svg Notified participants of WikiProject Italy, Uallv (talkcontribslogs) and the others.

I hope your end of year celebrations are going well. Now that the kindnesses are done, I give you my opinion: Symbol oppose vote oversat.svg Strong oppose. No, no, my mouse did not slide. I am not Père Fouettard (Q2120517). Besides, I'm with Santa Claus (Q315796) who asked me to give you some explanations as a gift. I'm sorry to tell you so brutally: this proposal will never result in a Property! (at this moment) The examples concern only part of the proposition and the rest is no better.
The examples are just people, so, necessarily, the url formatter seems correct. But the proposition is also made for organization (Q43229), family (Q8436) and the URL no longer works in these cases. If the url formatter is no longer suitable, the rest of the proposition becomes uncertain: external links does not reach the right pages and the RegEx is to be checked, etc.
BeWeb church ID (P5611) only took into account a certain number of churches on the site. With an example, it becomes even more concrete. Take "Chiesa di San Giorgio al Corso": as the name suggests, it is a church. But this page is not suitable for P5611, because the page is classified as entity (Q35120). This page is also not suitable for this proposal, because only persons coincide with url formatter. However, this page should be linked with chiesa di San Giorgio al Corso (Q3670341), but no property is suitable. As this part of the site is Esplora persone, famiglie, enti and because it contains churches, a new proposal must be made and BeWeb church ID (P5611) must be modified accordingly. The site is filled with identical cases.
Finally, WD is multilingual and the URLs can change depending on the language.
You have two options:
  1. Datatype URL: simple, but the property is no longer an identifier and P5611 becomes obsolete, as well as all the identifiers.
  2. Datatype external ID: this is already the type of the other property. the URL formatter is no more than the subdomain https://www.beweb.chiesacattolica.it/ and the RegEx will look like blablabla/bliblibli/#######. Thus all the entries of all the site can lead to only one Property. It's up to you to look for all valid entries to form a suitable RegEx. blablabla and bliblibli are all types (domain) in all languages and ####### is the same part of identifier of the proposal.
As indicated above, this proposal is not conclusive… (not done) As many voters, this will make a valid property proposal and, among you, there are 2 administrators to help you. Until then, happy celebrations. —Eihel (talk) 10:44, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
@Eihel: Chiesa di San Giorgio al Corso is not a church. The church itself has not an ID (for the moment), but you can find it in the church research (here, the second one; and it is also pesent at the bottom of the page you linked). The url you linked is referred to the parish (Q102496), which is an entity (Q35120). --Yiyi .... (talk!) 23:42, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
Dear Dario, thank you for your comment. What you write is right, but we don't write the opposite. The page which I quote, and which you repeat, is part of "persone, famiglie, enti". Uallv is trying to bring these pages together on WD by proposing a new property. Besides, you are right, it is indeed an entity as I wrote; and thank you for repeating what I write, it only reinforces the fact that this proposal can not lead to a property. This famous page could be listed by this future property (enti), but presently, the proposal only works for people (url formatter only for Q5). That is to say, several fields are false, because "famiglie" and "enti" are not allowed. Now, I wouldn't offend you for translating "Chiesa" (because Babel). With such a name, the other property (BeWeb church ID (P5611)) cannot collect this page under an ID, because again, it is an "entità" (entity (Q35120)). WD is not intended to list each URL independently in a multitude of properties (entity, church, person, family, organisation, etc.). Finally (and again), the page I give as an example (and you resume) can be identified on Q3670341, because, precisely, it is an entity. Whether it is a parrocchia or an entità, it fits very well with this Item. But that will never be the case, since the proposition is false. Contrary to what is announced in the proposal, there are only people in the url formatter (no organization, family, entity, etc. indeed group of humans (Q16334295)). This is not a unique case: a multitude of pages cannot be identified. In short, I am surprised that you keep your vote and that you take offense at what I write. But above all, I am surprised that no one has noticed the errors, especially after all the notifications. I thought my explanations were complete. A vote here does not only express the fact of wanting a property, but also knowing whether a property can be created. Cordially. —Eihel (talk) 02:14, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment @Uallv: Could you either add some examples of "organizations" in the proposal above, or change the property so it is limited to just people? I think either way would be fine here. ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:45, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Please notice that, even if the number "4" is "persona" (https://www.beweb.chiesacattolica.it/persone/persona/4/), both https://www.beweb.chiesacattolica.it/enti/ente/4/ and https://www.beweb.chiesacattolica.it/famiglie/famiglia/4/ lead to the same page. I've tried many times, it results that these 3 parts of the website use in fact the same list of numbers; so, if hypothetically I use the formatter URL https://www.beweb.chiesacattolica.it/persone/persona/$1/, it works also with "ente" and "famiglia" (I've added the examples). This equivalence between "persona" "ente" "famiglia" doesn't work with "edificio religioso" (= BeWeb church ID (P5611)), which uses a different and incompatible list of numbers, corresponding to a different section of the website.
Given this premises, I think that, excluding the datatype URL (external-id datatype should always be preferred for identifiers), there are three alternatives:
  1. keep BeWeb church ID (P5611) for "edificio religioso" and create a unique new property for "persona" "ente" "famiglia" with formatter URL https://www.beweb.chiesacattolica.it/persone/persona/$1, given the equivalence demonstrated above - as initially proposed, now the missing examples have been added
  2. keep BeWeb church ID (P5611) for "edificio religioso" and create three single new properties, one for "persona" (https://www.beweb.chiesacattolica.it/persone/persona/$1/), one for "ente" (https://www.beweb.chiesacattolica.it/enti/ente/$1/), one for "famiglia" (https://www.beweb.chiesacattolica.it/famiglie/famiglia/$1/) - as is done in many cases, e.g. MYmovies actor ID (P4779)/MYmovies movie ID (P4780)/MYmovies director ID (P4781)/MYmovies name ID (P4785) or Discogs artist ID (P1953)/Discogs master ID (P1954)/Discogs label ID (P1955)/Discogs composition ID (P6080) or Transfermarkt player ID (P2446)/Transfermarkt manager ID (P2447)/Transfermarkt referee ID (P3699)/Transfermarkt team ID (P7223) (I Symbol support vote.svg Support this solution)
  3. edit BeWeb church ID (P5611) giving formatter URL https://www.beweb.chiesacattolica.it/$1, with RegEx blablabla/bliblibli/#######, in order to have a single unique property for "edificio religioso" "persona" "ente" "famiglia" - as you proposed in option 2
I invite all interested users (

Airon90 ValterVB Alexmar983 Epìdosis Pietro Jura Beta16 Yiyi Sannita Camelia Massimo Sentruper Pierpao Marcok CristianNX Daniele Pugliesi (WMIT) AttoRenato Parma1983 Aborruso Sabas88 Lalupa DnaX Fausta Samaritani AlessioMela Patafisik Malore Jtorquy Nicholas Gemini Civvì Devbug Afnecors Susanna Giaccai FabC FeltriaUrbsPicta Horcrux Uomovariabile

Pictogram voting comment.svg Notified participants of WikiProject Italy) to vote for one of the three solutions. Thank you all and happy 2020, --Epìdosis 11:49, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! My vote is for the second solution. --Yiyi .... (talk!) 12:06, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
OK with solution N. 2, the recommended one. --Sentruper (talk) 12:14, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
Mee too, solution n° 2. --Camelia (talk) 12:32, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
OK solution 2--Parma1983 (talk) 13:03, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
Everybody so far is selecting number 2, I looked at it and it seems reasonable.--Alexmar983 (talk) 13:54, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Hello @Epìdosis:, You are right this part of the site only works with persone/persona. But this site offers a multitude of very interesting entries, so why limit yourself to a building, family, person and organization. For me, there are really only 2 solutions that I listed in my first post. Some examples that can be linked to WD:
These examples are only suitable for option 3. If you do not choose my first option with datatype URL, there remains only my option 2, ie option 3 of Epì. Otherwise, someone will sooner or later suggest other properties to encompass the entire site. HAPPY NEW YEAR. —Eihel (talk) 21:51, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
Solution 2 is ok also for me. How do I proceed? Am I expected to create 3 new property requests and we close this one? --Uallv (talk) 14:29, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
No need Uallv, the properties are so close and the community expresses itself here with a tendency for several properties. Just as there has been a new decision, it is fashionable to allow time (7 days, so January 12). As I am close, or Epì, to the problematic, the creation will be done at that time. Would that be okay with you? Have you also looked at the link on the property below? Cordially. —Eihel (talk) 16:32, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
I did but option numer creates multiple, artificial IDs linkable to every item (/people/person/1234/ e /persona/persona/1234/) and would be also harder to use. Thanks! --Uallv (talk) 15:21, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
@Uallv, Eihel: I can create the three properties on the 13th, no problem. --Epìdosis 20:41, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
  • RegEx for option 3 : [a-z]+\/[a-z]+\/([1-9]\d*\/)?(\S+)?. To convince yourself, visit this page https://w.wiki/EzC. All the entries of the BeWeb site work on this page. —Eihel (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Airon90 ValterVB Alexmar983 Epìdosis Pietro Jura Beta16 Yiyi Sannita Camelia Massimo Sentruper Pierpao Marcok CristianNX Daniele Pugliesi (WMIT) AttoRenato Parma1983 Aborruso Sabas88 Lalupa DnaX Fausta Samaritani AlessioMela Patafisik Malore Jtorquy Nicholas Gemini Civvì Devbug Afnecors Susanna Giaccai FabC FeltriaUrbsPicta Horcrux Uomovariabile

Pictogram voting comment.svg Notified participants of WikiProject Italy @Uallv, Gerwoman: ✓ Done by @Eihel: and me:

created. Thank you all, --Epìdosis 00:33, 14 January 2020 (UTC)