Wikidata:Property proposal/Réunion des musées nationaux id

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réunion des musées nationaux ID[edit]

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Authority control

   Done: no label (P5100) (Talk and documentation)
Descriptionidentifier for an artwork or other object, in the French 'Réunion des musées nationaux – Grand Palais' database
RepresentsRéunion des musées nationaux (Q13360245)
Data typeExternal identifier
Domainartworks and other objects
Allowed values[A-Z0-9]+
ExampleMona Lisa (Q12418) -> 2C6NU0WIT4EU
Sourcehttps://www.photo.rmn.fr/
Formatter URLhttps://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/-$1.html

Motivation

Réunion des musées nationaux – Grand Palais (Q206456) is a public, though commercial instutition that is supposed to give visibility to French public collections. French public institutions have several, partially overlapping databases that are poorly interconnected. For instance, some works are in the RMN database and not in the Joconde database (Joconde work ID (P347)) so I feel we need a new property.

Unless I am mistaken, the id of the work is the second part of the URL of pages like https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/11-564765-2C6NU0WIT4EU.html

User:Zolo
Jane023 (talk) 08:50, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
User:Vincent Steenberg
User:Kippelboy
User:Shonagon
Marsupium (talk) 13:46, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
GautierPoupeau (talk) 16:55, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Multichill (talk) 19:13, 8 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Susannaanas (talk) 11:32, 12 August 2014 (UTC) I want to synchronize the handling of maps with this initiative[reply]
Mushroom (talk) 00:10, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Jheald (talk) 17:09, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Spinster (talk) 15:16, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
PKM (talk) 21:16, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Vladimir Alexiev (talk) 17:12, 7 January 2015‎ (UTC)[reply]
Sic19 (talk) 21:12, 19 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wittylama (talk) 13:13, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Armineaghayan (talk) 08:40, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Musedata102 (talk) 20:27, 26 November 2019 (UTC) Hannolans (talk) 18:36, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
User:Martingggg
Zeroth (talk) 02:21, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
User:7samurais
User:mrtngrsbch
User:Buccalon
Infopetal (talk) 17:54, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Karinanw (talk) 16:38, 24 March 2020‎ (UTC)[reply]
Ahc84 (talk) 17:38, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:BeatrixBelibaste
Valeriummaximum
Bitofdust (talk) 22:52, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Mathieu Kappler
Zblace (talk) 07:22, 24 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oursana (talk) 13:16, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ham II (talk) 08:30, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notified participants of WikiProject Visual arts. --Zolo (talk) 09:16, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion
@Zolo:  Support The permalink is https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/11-564765-2C6NU0WIT4EU.html so the formatter url should probably be https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/11-564765-$1.html . I looked at the source and 2C6NU0WIT4EU shows up at IID so I'm confident this won't suddenly change. Multichill (talk) 09:40, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Multichill: I think "11-564765" is the id of the image (photo.rmn is primarily an image database). It corresponds to the "SYSTEM IDENTIFIER" in the caption. If you go to https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/11-564765-2C6NU0WIT4EU.html and click on another photo of Mona Lisa, you will get another 11-d+ id. --Zolo (talk) 12:58, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Zolo: No. It isn't. 2C6NU0WIT4EU is also just the identifier for a single image. Look at the set of images for the Mona Lisa linked above. One image has 2C6NU0WIT4EU, one has 2CO5PKMNC9BTN, one has 2CO5PKMNC96QC, etc. I was forgetting that this was France, which seems so institutionally blind to the value of the public domain, still more to broad 'fair use' -- at a judicial and legislative level, as well as organisations and institutions. We have a similar problem with antipathy from certain members of Art UK. All the same, it may still be worth trying to make contact, particularly if you can get to some of the more technical people. Jheald (talk) 20:57, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The main documentary unit of the RMN database is the image not the artwork: 11-564765 is the ID of the image (fyi, 11 for 2011).
IDs for artworks exist but we can not retrieve them in this website. Furthermore:
  • images can be removed. Old image are often replaced with new.
  • doubles exist (no example in mind). When a new photo campaign is made, it happens that a new artwork unit is created (unliked to the previous exiting artwork unit).
  • there is no policy for public IDs of artworks and persistant URLs. The URLs are part of the current tool that could disapear in the next year and the setting up a resolver is highly unlikely.
But, as Zolo pointed the perimeter of database is very wide with metadata, like access number, provided by museums. For many artworks, this is the only online authority ressource; example: Female polo player-MA 6116 (Q45411672) linked to https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/03-006517-2C6NU046SI9F.html .
The RMN has provided another website, launched in 2015 for large audience : Images d'art. The content is almost the same (the difference is that images of french museums artworks are in, but images of other agencies distributed in France by the RMN, like those of Scala, are not). From web architecture point of view, there are 2 significal changements:
  • webpages built on artworks units
  • sustainable URLs not part of a tool
For example : La Joconde
Maybe this website could be a better choice for this property. Best regards. --Shonagon (talk) 10:53, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your explanatins. However, I have not understood how ids / URLs work at images d'art. Mona Lisa is http://art.rmngp.fr/fr/library/artworks/leonard-de-vinci_la-joconde_huile-sur-bois_1503 Can "eonard-de-vinci_la-joconde_huile-sur-bois_1503" be considered a stablle identifier (it does not feel like one) ? --Zolo (talk) 07:23, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Zolo Yes it could be. Not stricly an artwork ID, but it's a persitant URL for a webpage linked to an unique artwork unit. There is no equivalent on photo.rmn.fr. For such type of stable identifiers, similar cases are rare on Wikidata:
SELECT ?prop ?propLabel  (SAMPLE(?example) as ?example)
WHERE 
{
  ?prop wdt:P31/wdt:P279* wd:Q19833377.
  ?prop wikibase:qualifier ?propqualifier.
  ?prop  p:P1855 [ ps:P1855 [] ;
                   ?propqualifier ?example ].
  SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
} GROUP BY ?prop ?propLabel
Try it!
If we want to link to RMN database, imho, http://art.rmngp.fr is not perfect but much more accurate and stable. Best regards. --Shonagon (talk) 10:27, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Uh having a look at your query, I see Images d'Art artwork ID (P4761). Sorry all for wating your time but it seems that we already have it. I have added a few aliases so that we can find it more easily. I am still puzzled as to why they don't show more standard ids for the artwork. -Zolo (talk) 10:46, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Zolo. No problem, this database deserves indeed attention and I feel the same puzzled. Images d'art was a first step with web exposition focused on artwork. Best regards --Shonagon (talk) 09:14, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Shonagon, ديفيد عادل وهبة خليل 2, Multichill, Jheald, Pigsonthewing, Zolo: @YULdigitalpreservation: ✓ Done: P5100 (P5100). − Pintoch (talk) 06:21, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Pintoch: Did you mean to create this? I thought User:Zolo above had withdrawn the proposal. Jheald (talk) 13:01, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Jheald: whoops, looks like that was a glitch indeed. ArthurPSmith marked this as ready and I overlooked the {{Withdrawn}}. I will propose this for deletion then. − Pintoch (talk) 13:19, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oops - I saw the "Wait" crossed out, but didn't notice the "Withdrawn" after! ArthurPSmith (talk) 22:55, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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