Talk:Q2272

Holla in replaces (P1365)

@Bergenga, Einar Myre: Einar Myre added Gjerpen and Solum. Then Bergenga added Holla. It is true that Holla was added to Skien in 1964, but only a fraction of it. This source tells it was 259 inhabitants while 4093 went to Lunde instead. Normally we have only added when significant parts of a municipality has been merged. In this example, nothing is noted about the 2000+ inhabitants that were added in 1916 or the 3500+ who went to Porsgrunn in 1968.

I therefor see two alternatives here. Add applies to part (P518):Valebø krets as a qualifier to the Holla-statement. Or simply remove it. 62 etc (talk) 07:52, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree that my addition here was incomplete, but I'm not sure what would be the best solution. Adding P518 would be the most obvious thing, but then we'd have to create an element for the grunnkrets (basic statistical unit (Q4580177)), and I'm not so sure we should add elements for just any grunnkrets. They are just not very notable by themselves. There are a few elements that are instance of grunnkrets, but I personally think they are wrong. Even if the grunnkrets has the name in question, the name comes from other types. I checked just a few of them, and the names come from hamlets, villages and others.

One quickfix would be to set P518 with Valebø (Q7910607), but even if it would prove the point, I would be the first to admit that it would be very bad data quality (wrong data type).

It doesn't matter much to me if the Q2272 element has this value, but it does matter that the Holla Municipality (Q4588743) element has it, as it is important to note that not all of Holla became part of Nome when it ceased to exist as part of the very large municipal reform that took place in 1964. There are some elements of similarity to what happened with neighbouring municipality Sauherad (Q2381) during the slightly smaller municipal reform of 2020, when Angard and Hjuksebø grunnkrets were transferred to Notodden and not Midt-Telemark. I see in the element for Sauherad that the transfer of Hjuksebø and Angard is noted as significant event (P793) and boundary change (Q28953942). I honestly find that a bit odd, as it didn't happend during the existence of the object. I personally think that it would sound more logical to include both Midt-Telemark and Notodden in replaced by, but I'm not the expert here. However, using P793 is maybe a good idea for the events of 1916 and 1968 that you mentioned.

When I do my edits on municipalities the number of inhabitants is of little or no interrest to me. Geographical area is what matters to me. I haven't found any good map of Holla to measure exactly, but from some bad maps and compared to today's map, it apperas that the territory that was transferred to Skien in 1964 was about 10–20 % of Holla, which is a considerably larger portion than when counting inhabitants. I have no idea how large geographical areas were transferred in 1916 and 1968, but as they probably were in densely populated areas, they might not be very large.

A bit off topic, but here is a litthe further reading on why it was inevitable that Hjuksebø ended up in Notodden in the end. Bergenga (talk) 22:19, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure either, but I think we should consider what kind of change it officially was. According to Inndelingsloven, there's a difference between mergers, divisions and border adjustments. To use the examples from Midt-Telemark, Bø and Sauherad officially merged to the new municipality of Midt-Telemark, while the transfer of Angard and Hjuksebø was officially a border adjustment between Sauherad and Notodden.

In my opinion, replaces (P1365)/replaced by (P1366) doesn't make much sense for border adjustments, and it's not necessarily the best way to model all other municipal changes either. When one municipality is created from another, which continues to exist, separated from (P807) is more appropriate. Similarly, the recently created merged into (P7888) may be more fitting for situations where a municipality merged into another, which already existed before the merger. For border adjustments, I've used significant event (P793) with gained territory from (P7903) and gave up territory to (P7904) for all that happened the last few years.

In this particular case, according to [1], Skien, Gjerpen and Solum were merged, while Valebø was transferred from Holla. To me, this would mean that if we say that the Skien before and after the merger is the same entity, Gjerpen and Solum were merged into (P7888), and not replaced by (P1366), Skien. I'm not entirely sure how to best understand the Valebø transfer, but I think I prefer using significant event (P793). Einar Myre (talk) 16:24, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Since you two seem to be doing things somewhat systematically, while I only add stuff when I see that there is something missing, I'll really leave this up to you, as long as things like Valebø moving from one municipality to another aren't totally left out of it. However, I think Einar have some good ideas of how things should be, and what might work or not. And yes, P7888 seems to be useful here, I wasn't aware of it before now.

The way I understand the source related to Skien in 1964, Valebø was formally moved from Holla to Gjerpen, but since Gjerpen ceased to exist at the very same time, it is better to say that it was moved to Skien. The idea of using what was formally decided is okay, even if it doesn't always make sense to me when first looking at it. After some years with WD, I've learned that we can't always connect things in the most logical way. Then we would need oh so many specific properties, and we wouldn't want that either. Bergenga (talk) 21:09, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

head of government (P6) and parental leave

@Einar Myre: Hedda Foss Five is according to Skiens website on parental leave. In a "list of ordfører in Skien kommune", I would maybe have added "Trond Ballestad" as "acting ordfører" here. And it would maybe fit into the item about Trond Ballestad himself, but I doubt it fits here in the item about Skien. 62 etc (talk) 07:58, 17 February 2020 (UTC)